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Old July 25, 2014, 12:19 AM   #101
herrwalther
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I conceal carry at gun stores and gun shows. Namely because concealed is concealed, signs don't carry the rule of law in my state, and I am not a yahoo who pulls my weapon unless a VERY good reason presents itself ie active shooter. There has only been ONE store where a "no guns" sign meant a concealed weapon, and I don't go there anymore. Every other store the sign means guns to sell, have the smith work on etc. I asked my favorite gun store how they felt about concealed carry on the property and was told "As long as it stays in the holster, it doesn't exist." Easy to see why it is my favorite store.
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Old July 25, 2014, 01:22 AM   #102
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I don't support gun ranges or gun shops that forbid conceal carry. The way I think of it is if they cannot trust people with guns in their shops, they shouldn't trust the same people carrying a gun in crowded stores or shopping malls with children and other people present.. Also, considering a person will be handling a loaded weapon near me, if he cannot be trusted with a gun in the range, why should he be trusted handling a weapon sitting next to me? I want anybody I am shooting next to, to respect the rules of gun safety everywhere they go. If they won't respect the rules in the club house, why would they respect them on the range while people are walking up and gathering their targets with their backs turned?

If they are afraid of people pulling their loaded weapon on them, they can have a large sign telling people to leave their weapons holstered. Many guns store, including larger ones like Cabelas and Wholesale Sports all have these signs and most law abiding gun owners respect and understand these signs.

As far as gun shows are concerned, I can respect them possibly requiring people to not allow loaded guns there, assuming there is adequate armed security. If there is not adequate armed security, I will not attend a gun show that forbids me to conceal carry. Yes, a place with so many guns being handled in the open I can understand why people would be worried about people bringing loaded guns in, especially as some people will try to barter the guns at the show. However, I think a person is as vulnerable of being attacked at a gun show , let's say they are walking to their car with $1000s of guns. If thieves know that everyone at the show is disarmed, what a great opportunity it could be? Some gun shows have dark parking lots with inadequate security.
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Old July 25, 2014, 01:33 AM   #103
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I have a license and carry a handgun concealed at gun shows, gun stores, and ranges. The gun that I am carrying concealed is not a gun I would be swapping say at a gun show. If I decided I wanted to sell or trade that gun, I would go outside and unload and bring it in to get the zip tie that a lot of the shows do to keep the action open. This is just the common sense way to approach it.
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Old July 25, 2014, 01:36 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen View Post
I don't support gun ranges or gun shops that forbid conceal carry. The way I think of it is if they cannot trust people with guns in their shops, they shouldn't trust the same people carrying a gun in crowded stores or shopping malls with children and other people present.. Also, considering a person will be handling a loaded weapon near me, if he cannot be trusted with a gun in the range, why should he be trusted handling a weapon sitting next to me? I want anybody I am shooting next to, to respect the rules of gun safety everywhere they go. If they won't respect the rules in the club house, why would they respect them on the range while people are walking up and gathering their targets with their backs turned?

If they are afraid of people pulling their loaded weapon on them, they can have a large sign telling people to leave their weapons holstered. Many guns store, including larger ones like Cabelas and Wholesale Sports all have these signs and most law abiding gun owners respect and understand these signs.

As far as gun shows are concerned, I can respect them possibly requiring people to not allow loaded guns there, assuming there is adequate armed security. If there is not adequate armed security, I will not attend a gun show that forbids me to conceal carry. Yes, a place with so many guns being handled in the open I can understand why people would be worried about people bringing loaded guns in, especially as some people will try to barter the guns at the show. However, I think a person is as vulnerable of being attacked at a gun show , let's say they are walking to their car with $1000s of guns. If thieves know that everyone at the show is disarmed, what a great opportunity it could be? Some gun shows have dark parking lots with inadequate security.
I heard about this story last month which is another reason why this topic popped up in my head.

My LGS is also a shooting range. I'm always a little paranoid about walking to and from my car carrying $1000-$2000 worth of firearms on me. I always felt safe while in the LGS's parking lot, but always looked in my rear view on the way home to make sure I wasn't being followed (Seen people who brought expensive items & were followed home and robbed many times on a TV show called "The First 48"). I used to feel safe believing that no one would be stupid enough to rob someone at or near a shooting range, but after hearing about that story, I just do not feel comfortable not having a loaded weapon on me.
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Old July 25, 2014, 01:53 AM   #105
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Just conceal a handgun that you are not going to shoot at that range and bring your handguns you are going to shoot unloaded in a case or range bag. That is the way I handle that issue.
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Old July 25, 2014, 02:06 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by razorback2003 View Post
Just conceal a handgun that you are not going to shoot at that range and bring your handguns you are going to shoot unloaded in a case or range bag. That is the way I handle that issue.
That's exactly what I do now.
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Old July 25, 2014, 02:10 AM   #107
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sure is a lot of you grabbing yourselves and saying I will do what I want to do in this thread. then again, just a couple of weeks ago, beating the hell out of the OC group
and saying they are hurting our cause. interesting.
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Old July 25, 2014, 02:17 AM   #108
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sure is a lot of you grabbing yourselves and saying I will do what I want to do in this thread. then again, just a couple of weeks ago, beating the hell out of the OC group
and saying they are hurting our cause. interesting.
Open carrying an "assault" riffle into a businesses in the middle of town scaring customers (who aren't use to being around guns) away and purposely wasting L.E.'s time is not the same as conceal carrying a holstered handgun in a gun shop filled with people who like guns... Apples and oranges...
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Old July 25, 2014, 02:26 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by razorback2003 View Post
Just conceal a handgun that you are not going to shoot at that range and bring your handguns you are going to shoot unloaded in a case or range bag. That is the way I handle that issue.
That's what I do too. I may shoot my carry gun at the range but I also have a magazine loaded for it to go back in the gun for the ride home.
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Old July 25, 2014, 02:29 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by lxd55
sure is a lot of you grabbing yourselves and saying I will do what I want to do in this thread. then again, just a couple of weeks ago, beating the hell out of the OC group
and saying they are hurting our cause. interesting.
Wow. Are you serious? Can you not see the difference between the two? The difference is huge.

Like Praxidike said, there's world of difference between concealed carry and blatant, in-your-face open carry of scary-looking long guns in private businesses where people aren't used to seeing guns. One scares the public and drives middle-of-the-road people against gun owners (which causes us to lose gun rights), and the other doesn't hurt anyone because no one notices.
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Old July 25, 2014, 09:07 AM   #111
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dont get it = thats fine with me

IF any do not comprehend why I feel the 'need' to be armed at all times,that is just fine by me.

Not understanding that an attack can [ and does ! ] happen ANYTIME & ANYWHERE is the reason I am the one responsible for my safety and that of my family.

A gun shop = YES they do get held up

A gun show = yes there are those that might see a place full of guns as a great place to steal / rob.

Malls and schools = need you really ask ?.

IF calling 9/11 is the only option ,then your facing a possible loss of life and all that entails = IF you are not able [ yes and TRAINED ] to take control of that situation.

I actually train for MY worst case scenario,any who CCW should do the same.
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Old July 25, 2014, 09:56 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by lxd55 View Post
sure is a lot of you grabbing yourselves and saying I will do what I want to do in this thread. then again, just a couple of weeks ago, beating the hell out of the OC group
and saying they are hurting our cause. interesting.
Yes, I CC in a gun shop that has the "no loaded firearms" sign. The pistol stays concealed and isn't handled at all...

We aren't parading around department stores or posing for pics with AR15s.

Apples and oranges.
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Old July 25, 2014, 10:09 AM   #113
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The reason no loaded guns are allowed in gun shows is the exact same reason most gun classes will not allow loaded guns in the classroom until you get to the range and why you're not supposed to even have ammo in the same room if you're doing dry-fire practice.

Because all three are places where people handle firearms. It's one thing to have a gun on your hip in Target, where you are not going to handle any guns sans pressing need, it's another thing to have loaded guns in play when thousands of people are looking down the sights, cycling the actions, and pulling the triggers on thousands of guns, and a significant minority of those people are apparently unaware of basic gun safety rules when doing so.

However, I've never seen a gun show with a metal detector. So my solution has always been to never take out a loaded gun, and never bring ammunition for guns I intend to show, sell, or trade.
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Old July 25, 2014, 11:42 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Madcap_Magician View Post
The reason no loaded guns are allowed in gun shows is the exact same reason most gun classes will not allow loaded guns in the classroom until you get to the range and why you're not supposed to even have ammo in the same room if you're doing dry-fire practice.
Actually...I'm betting it's more because of local politics and insurance reasons than anything else.

Setting up a gun show costs money...having to pay more money for insurance means having to charge more money somewhere along the line in order to cover expenses.
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Old July 25, 2014, 12:15 PM   #115
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I suppose a legitimate question [then] would be, . . . "At gunshows that have a posted "no loaded guns" sign, . . . do you still conceal carry?"
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Old July 25, 2014, 12:24 PM   #116
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I suppose a legitimate question [then] would be, . . . "At gunshows that have a posted "no loaded guns" sign, . . . do you still conceal carry?"
Good question.

My answer is "no, I do not conceal carry against the rules of the gun shows, even in states where such postings do not carry the force of law".

If I feel that strongly about the rule, then I don't go. Simple as that.

Whether I like such rules or not, private organizations have the right to decide such matters. I find it personally distasteful and disrespectful to go against their choice because I respect THEIR RIGHT in this matter...no matter my feelings.
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Old July 25, 2014, 01:14 PM   #117
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Theohazard

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onward Allusion
Holy crap! I just went through 3 pages of this thread and can't believe that most of you guys sound exactly like the anti's who do not want loaded guns in their establishments? A lot of y'all are trying to rationalize it with the "dumb gun owner" bit, but isn't that exactly what the anti's also claim? Dumb gun owners who are not responsible enough to:<SNIP>
Your argument is fundamentally flawed: Nobody is arguing that the prohibition of loaded guns in guns shows should be banned by law. These are private events, and therefore the owners and organizers should have the right to decide what happens inside their doors. But the antis want to pass laws banning people from carrying in those places you listed, and that's the fundamental difference.

I have no problem if a gun show or gun shop (or any other private establishment) wants to make their own rules; they should be completely free to do so. And I had enough loaded guns pointed at me while working at a gun shop that I think it's probably a good idea from a safety standpoint. And anyone who thinks that makes me the same as the antis simply isn't thinking this through.


I would have to disagree that my logic is "fundementally flawed". No one is outright saying that they are FOR laws prohibiting guns from certain places. Also, guns being banned from private property IS LAW depending on the State Some States afford those signs prohibiting firearms the weight of losing one's right to CC permanently.

However, the overwhelming majority of people in this forum will say that they will not patronize (or at the very least voice their displeasure) a business if that business banned CC guns from their property. These are the same people who will claim that the business is anti or have succumbed to the pressures of the gun control crowd.

Yet these are the same individuals who claim that loaded firearms at a gun show is somehow more dangerous than carrying a loaded gun anywhere else? Why is that? Is it because they think that most people (aside from themselves?) are too stupid to safely carry a loaded firearm concealed when there are other guns around? Somehow when they see other guns, these "stupid" gun owners lose all senses, will whip theirs out and start blasting away? If that were truly the case, we would read, see, & hear about a heck of a lot more than the HANDFUL OF STORIES that get posted here in this forum every year. Trust me, the media would have a freakin' field day with these types of stories.

Is it hypocritical for gun owners who espouse gun rights, 2nd rights, CC rights, gun ownership, gun training...etc. but say that loaded guns at a gun show is dangerous? You bet it is hypocritical. It is hypocritical of PRIVATE GUN CLUBS to forbid loaded CC weapons on their property. It is hypocritical for PRIVATE GUN SHOPS/BUSINESSES to ban CC weapons on their property.

DO ALL THESE PRIVATE ENTITIES HAVE THE RIGHT. You bet! IS IT HYPOCRITICAL? DARN STRAIGHT IT IS.
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Old July 25, 2014, 02:00 PM   #118
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Onward Allusion, I'm going to re-post what I wrote in post number 75:

"And there is also a fundamental difference between, say, Target and an LGS. When was the last time you saw someone point a gun at someone when you were at Target? It probably doesn't happen very often, so there's much less of a need for Target to make rules regarding guns. But at an LGS, range, or gun show, that happens all the time. I had guns -- loaded and not -- pointed at me all the time at the LGS where I worked. People loved to pull out their carry gun for you to look at it. One time someone pulled out a loaded Glock and pointed it at an employee's face so he could show him the broken flashlight that was attached to it. And his finger was on the trigger."

Almost every single gun shop, range, or gun show has had negligent discharges on their premises. The shop where I worked did allow people to carry holstered handguns, but any other guns had to be unloaded in a case. All gun handling had to be done at the counter under employee supervision. Were those rules hypocritical? No, those rules were there because we had safety issues with bad gun handling and even some negligent discharges. So those rules were simply put in place for common sense safety reasons.

Now, if Target (or any other non-gun-related store) had the same kinds of issues and enacted policies to combat them, then that makes sense too. In fact, Starbucks and Chipotle had a problem with groups of morons carrying long guns in their stores and posing for pictures with them, which hurt their business. So their new policies aim to prevent that, which is totally fine with me.

The difference is if those stores enact their gun policies to actually prevent an occurring problem, or if they enact them for political reasons. And either way, it's the stores' right to do so.
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Old July 25, 2014, 04:56 PM   #119
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Actually...I'm betting it's more because of local politics and insurance reasons than anything else.
Sure, but a distinction without a difference, because if there is local political opposition or higher insurance premiums, it is because local politicians and insurers think the risk for an accident is higher... because people are handling guns.
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Old July 26, 2014, 12:31 AM   #120
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Wow. Are you serious? Can you not see the difference between the two? The difference is huge.

Like Praxidike said, there's world of difference between concealed carry and blatant, in-your-face open carry of scary-looking long guns in private businesses where people aren't used to seeing guns. One scares the public and drives middle-of-the-road people against gun owners (which causes us to lose gun rights), and the other doesn't hurt anyone because no one notices.
yes I understand the difference in all of it. legal is legal and if you are asked not to carry your cc firearm and you do? it is not apples and oranges, it is choices.
divide and suppress/conquer. I admit I am new here but I am by no means a
stranger to how the world works. as of the open carry not all of it has to do with rifles
as was mentioned in the thread.
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Old July 26, 2014, 12:48 AM   #121
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If you have a license and are legally concealing a handgun that you are not selling at a show or store, what is the problem? Keep your gun on you and covered up. Don't remove it from the holster. A sign that says "no loaded guns" does not apply to me as a licensee.

The gun shows, gun stores, and ranges know that 90% of the public, including gun owners, do not actually carry in public. So the few that do are discreetly carrying concealed. Discreetly concealed means that no one knows. It also means you have enough common sense to avoid being found out for carrying.

A lot of policies are meant for the people with no common sense who have fingers on triggers, by accident point guns at folks, and rarely if ever fire a gun. Those people don't know how to be safe, discreet, and conceal. Most of the gun owning public does not carry on a license in public.

I pay the money for a license and will continue to legally carry at those places. There is no comparison between safe and discreet carry VS open carrying a long gun with one in the chamber and a full magazine in a non gun related store.

Last edited by razorback2003; July 26, 2014 at 12:54 AM.
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Old July 26, 2014, 03:03 AM   #122
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yes I understand the difference in all of it.
If you truly understand the difference, then you must realize how ridiculous your post (post #107) was. Carrying a concealed weapon against an establishment's request is completely different from staging an in-your-face open carry rally inside a restaurant or coffee shop.
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Old July 26, 2014, 06:44 AM   #123
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Sure, but a distinction without a difference, because if there is local political opposition or higher insurance premiums, it is because local politicians and insurers think the risk for an accident is higher... because people are handling guns.
Well...I don't think it's "a distinction without a difference". In one, the decision is heavily based on outside influences (political or fiscal). In the other, the decision is based solely on those who plan and organize the events (they would have made this decision even if local politics or insurance costs weren't a factor).

Intent is everything.
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Old July 26, 2014, 01:01 PM   #124
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Oughtn't it be 49% ?
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Old July 26, 2014, 01:02 PM   #125
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Remember that 50% of the people you meet are below average....

Guns and the sum of all those averages concentrated in large numbers? Uhh..... <sigh>...


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49%...
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