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Old July 26, 2014, 12:16 AM   #26
22-rimfire
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My personal opinion is that either will work very well for your stated purpose and my guess is you will carry the thicker steel version (heavy duty) on the off chance you feel more comfortable with a bit more blade strength. The Mora's make a great fishing knife too. I have a companion and have been pleased with it. It was my second Mora, but I wanted to try one of these out. If I have any complaint with the Mora knives I own (Scout knife and Carbon Steel Companion), they feel much like kitchen knives and lack the "heft" that I am used to with fixed blades. But they are sharp as the dickens and are easy to maintain an edge on them. I hope you enjoy using them.
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Old July 26, 2014, 12:34 AM   #27
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Glad you like them. I use water stones 600,1000 and finish with a very fine translucent oil stone guessing 2000- 3000 grit. Do some research on sharpening.
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Old July 26, 2014, 09:42 PM   #28
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You be happy with them both. And you will get more.
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Old July 27, 2014, 01:48 AM   #29
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I'm just finishing my second attempt at a forced Apple cider vinegar patina on the heavy duty. First try went horribly horribly wrong in so many ways. Second try seems to be going much better. So much of the darkness rubs off even just with a cotton rag (old shirt). We'll see how dark it finishes out this time (second soaking for a little over an hour.

I've looked a little into sharpening and know the basics. I bought a smiths 8" diamond tri-hone with the knives. Coarse and fine diamond and very fine Arkansas stone (don't have the grits handy at the moment. When these blades finally need attention I hope I can do them justice.
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Old July 27, 2014, 01:59 AM   #30
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There's sharpening info at the Ragweed Forge site. Ragnar's also great to deal with if you decide to buy something.

Regards,
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Old July 27, 2014, 03:08 AM   #31
Centurian22
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So here are the results of patina round 2:



I did it on the heavy duty to start. Now I need to decide if I want to make them match and do the same to the regular or keep them differentiated. For those who don't patina, do you polish, just keep oiled, what? It seems the oil holds better on the patina surface compared to beading up on the non patina so far.

Where its possible to likely that one or both of these could be stored for a month at a time while I'm away at work, I want the best rust protection I can give them. Heck even if I patina the second I might leave them in a jar of oil. I'm afraid to come back after a month and find my new favorite knives pitted rusted and in pain.
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Old July 27, 2014, 11:44 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurian22 View Post
It seems the oil holds better on the patina surface compared to beading up on the non patina so far.
It does. The surface of the blade is now covered in tiny pits and crevices that the oil (or any other, possibly corrosive, fluid) can cling to, and that is about all it does.

Remember, a patina is corrosion.
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Old July 27, 2014, 11:56 AM   #33
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Depends on what you use them for. I wipe down food knives, cast iron pans, and a French mild steel pan (my favorite pan!) with cooking oil. I've never had a problem, even with items that are used infrequently, like my plain steel wok.

Knives that aren't used on food get a tiny amount RIG grease. I keep a small piece of cotton cloth with a bit of the stuff on it in a ziploc bag. A little goes a LOOOONG way. This is what I wipe down knives, tools, machetes, etc. with when putting them away after use.

Other preservative oils and greases are available from Midway or from Brownells. I think in your shoes I'd call Brownells tomorrow and talk to one of their techs about rust preventatives. There are tons of great choices available. You could also just search rust prevention in these forums. The results might surprise you. Some people even use paste wax for a preservative, and it can work very well. Avoid Rem Oil, by the way. It's cheap and widely available, but I'm not impressed with it. It's very thin, and I don't trust it for lubrication or rust prevention. BTW, although it's about lubrication, this article by Grant Cunningham might be helpful:

Lubrication 101

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Old July 27, 2014, 03:07 PM   #34
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Thanks for the links and info, I'll check them out. There is always a possibility either of these could be used for food so thus far I've been using veg. oil on both. For tools and firearms I've turned to a 50/50 mix of mobil 1 and synthetic ATF. So far no problems. I'm also starting to use Eezox after reading several comparison articles / threads.
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Old July 27, 2014, 11:05 PM   #35
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http://www.amazon.com/Frosts-Carbon-.../dp/B000HAOTB4
The sheath looks a bit suspect
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Old July 27, 2014, 11:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
There is always a possibility either of these could be used for food so thus far I've been using veg. oil on both.
Thanks to hso's tips, on blades that may come in contact with food I've switched to food grade mineral oil as a lubricant, or food grade paraffin wax (i.e. Canning Wax from the grocery store) as a dry film corrosion inhibitor. I like paraffin on fixed blades because they don't have pivots that need lubrication; and because the wax is dry it stays put and isn't messy.

Quote:
The sheath looks a bit suspect
It's a variant of the low cost injection molded plastic sheath that all the low cost Moras come with. It's not much to look it, and I was skeptical of the Mora plastic sheaths too. I've found out they're actually quite sturdy and secure though.
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Old July 28, 2014, 12:50 AM   #37
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If you are looking to further your collection and were impressed with the Moras, check out J. Marttiini knives. My Mora was sharp when it arrived, but my Marttiini put it to shame. BTW, Marttiini is who makes the nice Rapala filet knives. Very nice knives, very sharp right out of the box, and still pretty inexpensive.
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Old July 28, 2014, 06:28 PM   #38
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I like the canning wax idea. I'll be giving that a try. What improvment does food grade mineral oil offer over just plain vegetable oil?
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Old July 28, 2014, 06:55 PM   #39
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The advantage to mineral oils over vegetable oils is that mineral oils are petroleum based. So, they won't spoil, and they break down much more slowly. FGMO is very similar in composition to food grade paraffin wax, but (obviously) liquid at room temperature rather than solid.
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Old July 28, 2014, 11:44 PM   #40
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Your patina treatment has also damaged the edge of your new knives along with the surface so you'll probably need to sharpen them. Get an angle guide and stay off the diamond.

People should not experiment with patinas until they've actually had a chance to work with their knives a bit keeping corrosion at bay with wax or mineral oil (or WD40 Specialist AntiCorrosion if you're not going to do food) and if they're going to do it they take a gentle and gradual approach instead of being aggressive.
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Old July 29, 2014, 06:22 AM   #41
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hso, as I was researching the patina I became curious what if any affect it would have on the edge, expecting some potential deterioration. I would have been ok with this if it had happened to any noticeable degree as I also want to learn, practice and improve my sharpening and honing abilities. However, thus far I have been unable to detect any loss of sharpness in the edge. Maybe I just don't know how to proper test an edge to the degree to see the difference, or maybe with use the edge will wear more than if I had not applied the patina, I'm not sure. Comeing from someone who was perfectly happy with stainless steel blades like my leatherman wave, and 154cm steel like my benchmade, these two knives have really rocked my world and will continue to be a great learning experience for me especially at less than $30. Thats the best part to me. If I somehow totally screwed up one or both of theses knives beyond any possible repair (which I think would be pretty difficult to do) its not a big deal for me to replace them after having learned some lessons.

Is the hatred of patina here a 'high end knife guy' thing or what? I know you can't believe everything / anything you read online but I did what I considered to be some significant research and found that many sources indicated that a forced patina could significantly reduce the likelihood of the blade rusting if I used it in a less than ideal environment and was unable to properly clean and oil it for some time. I'm not trying to refute what you've said, I appreciate any information and education I can get on things I know little about (high carbon being one of them), I just want to better understand.

Thanks.
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Old July 29, 2014, 10:25 AM   #42
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I, for one, don't hate forced patinas. I've used vinegar most times. Others use something like vinegar for a light gray, then apply mustard or something similar to do "stripes". Not my style. I usually just let a carbon steel blade go gray naturally with use.

I hope that Ragnar's sharpening instructions helped. He also links to some videos on the topic. I'm sure YouTube has plenty on the topic.

I'm sure you're going to enjoy your knives. My all-time fave is the Eriksson #546-G. It has a 3-3/4" stainless blade that's .079" thick. The hard green hilt is textured and has a single guard. I cut off the belt loop and use it as a pocket knife. I like it so much that I look for pants and shorts with "tube" pockets that allow discrete carry of the 546-G. I also like the #511, which is the same knife in carbon steel with an orange hilt and black sheath. There's one in my pocket right now. Ragnar sells them for $8.

At-home "EDC" is often just a .32 pistol and an Eriksson 546-G or 511. Light, useful tools.

BTW, Ragnar now has the Eriksson #510 once again. It's like the 546, but in carbon steel with no guard and a black handle and sheath, for $12. Unfortunately, Ragnar's on break and doesn't return until Aug. 11.

All my best,
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Last edited by Dirty Bob; July 29, 2014 at 10:46 AM.
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Old July 29, 2014, 02:06 PM   #43
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A difference that makes no difference is no difference. IOW, if you don't see a problem in this case there isn't any worth worrying about.

I consider forcing a patina on a blade to be pretty advanced as a technique and pretty risky if you don't go very slow so I "hate" the whole internet advocacy of it from the standpoint of damaging perfectly good blades. If done carefully and cautiously, a little at a time, it can help crate a somewhat protective layer, BUT it is mostly a decorative thing since there are so many more effective ways to prevent corrosion.
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Old July 29, 2014, 10:17 PM   #44
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Come the hot and humid summer season, any of my carbon steel knives and chisels which are stored outdoors grow plenty of surface rust. I find a forced patina conveniently cleans off the rust and adds protection.

When you put a patina on a knife, you are using acid to etch the surface. Oxidized metal (rust) reacts with the acid much faster than unoxidized metal. I.e., most of the things you use to put a patina on a knife also work to remove red rust.

Due to sharpening and stropping, this patina is mostly gone by the time the hot and rainy season comes around again. So it's kind of an annual thing. When stuff starts to rust, I apply the patina.

I'm sure a thorough cleaning and application of oil and wax would be beneficial in itself. But a patina sure helps. The etched surface holds oil better than untreated metal, and that IS a good thing. A big part of the protection given by parkerizing is due to this phenomenon.

On my outdoor tools, I use actual parkerizing solution, simply because I already have some, and it is fast. In fact, I just went through this ritual the other day. A little late this year, and there was plenty of surface rust. Maybe I'll post some "after" pics.

Because they are regularly exposed to water and acids before being wiped down and returned to a climate controlled environment, my kitchen knives develop and maintain a patina on their own. But if they start to get any red rust (usually thru laziness and leaving them wet), I might eventually wipe them down and apply some vinegar... this cleans the rust off and restores the patina to those spots. Maybe you can think of this as converting bad rust into good rust.

So other than occasionally playing around with a new knife, I usually put a patina on a blade in the process of cleaning off existing rust. It would certainly help to apply it preemptively. But since the way I sharpen my knives removes a good bit of the patina, anyway, I don't often bother to do it until my hand is forced.

Last edited by GLOOB; July 30, 2014 at 08:14 AM.
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Old July 30, 2014, 07:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurian22
The regular companion did have a pretty rough unfinished spine.
FWIW, I left the spines on my companions exactly as the factory did, because I found they run a fire steel much better with that roughness. YMMV
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Old July 30, 2014, 09:46 PM   #46
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I thought about leaving it and if it had been a more even unfinished spine I might have but I wanted it evened out. I can play with the spine to find what will work for fire striking.
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Old July 31, 2014, 12:11 AM   #47
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I like a flat sharp spine on these knives for scraping stuff, this is a advantage for me.
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Old August 10, 2014, 03:59 PM   #48
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Here's a pic of my outdoor Mora knives next to their indoor brothers. You can see where I sharpened the #2 since putting on the patina.
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/v...psa56516bb.jpg

Here's a closeup of where the rust was worst. On this laminated 106, the harder inner layer of steel rusts the worst. The darker area of the edge near the tip was completely covered in rust. The regular #2 had surface rust all over, but not as bad. You probably can't see the darker spots throughout the patina in the first pic. Parkerizing solution wiped on with a cloth transforms the rust before your eyes. Even at room temp, it only takes a few minutes.
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/v...ps8998797c.jpg

Quote:
I like a flat sharp spine on these knives for scraping stuff, this is a advantage for me.
I like a flat spine for scraping and for steeling. This is one reason I keep two knives on my workbench. They clean each other of glue/residue and sharpen each other. If you zoom in on the first pic you can see where the soft outer layer of the laminated knife gets dinged up from this chore.

This patina is not for show. It's a 50% byproduct of cleaning and 50% functional rust protection, making it a maintenance thing as opposed to a one-time application of a coating. I rarely find a need to resharpen a knife after the patina. The edge is barely affected. On a razor edge, it might take a couple strokes on a hone and strop, at most. Nothing that you wouldn't do on that kind of edge for regular maintenance, anyway.

Last edited by GLOOB; August 10, 2014 at 04:49 PM.
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Old November 1, 2014, 07:12 PM   #49
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Quote:
12C27 rust resistance is very good..but it will rust eventually if not maintained.
You are right Sam, I did six saltwater dives with this Mora and it began to take a toll.
008.JPG Near tip there was corrosion that damaged the edge
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Old November 1, 2014, 08:33 PM   #50
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Well I sharpened the Mora, but I still have a nick in the edge near the tip. I will take it out on the next sharpening.
010.JPG
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