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Old July 30, 2014, 02:41 AM   #1
NativePride
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NFA Specific Question for SBR Registration for ar lower

So tomorrow I will be getting My NFA Gun Trust notorized and funded. I bough a lower here in Texas at a gun show New and on 4473 filed as a receiver and wish to transfer to the trust and register it as a SBR however Here is where i am uncertain. The lower is engraved .223/5.56 I plan to form 1 it as a .300 blackout cal is this possible or will i have issues....
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Old July 30, 2014, 08:32 AM   #2
Aaron Baker
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It's fine. The caliber markings on the lower have no legal significance.
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Old July 30, 2014, 10:42 AM   #3
Willie Sutton
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^

And they can be removed with an end mill in a milling maching by anyone with access to a machine shop in about 15 seconds and then you can have that area re-marked if desired by engraving when it's engraved with the trust name,or just leave it blank. It might actually make a nice area to have the trust name engraved.



Willie

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Old July 30, 2014, 11:44 AM   #4
Arizona_Mike
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I'm not sure caliber markings have no legal significance because the receiver or barrel should be marked with manufacturer (your trust) serial no. (use original--must be on receiver), caliber (generally always on an aftermarket barrel).

"Multi" is no longer allowed (if it is still on the e-form pull down as it was last year do not select). You should first "make" the firearm in the given configuration. The ATF wants notification if you make a permanent modification. In the case of an AR that means you no longer own the parts to make the listed configuration. I just sent one such letter in the same envelope as my next 5320.

Unless they have gotten more specific since last year, they just had number calibers in the pull down not chamberings. In that case my lower is registered as .30 caliber.

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If it involves guns or paracord it does not count as macramé.
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Old July 30, 2014, 12:21 PM   #5
Aaron Baker
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The manufacturer of the lower had to mark it with a caliber.

But when I say it has no "legal significance," I mean that you're not restricted to the caliber marked on the lower. A lower marked with ANY caliber can be built in any other caliber.

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Old July 30, 2014, 07:00 PM   #6
NativePride
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Ok another question for those that have used a trust. i am setup notorized and have it funded bank account ect...

Whats the process for transferring unbuilt lower to the trust a simple bill of sale i assume then. After that I assume I file the form 1 for the SBR correct?
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Old July 30, 2014, 09:11 PM   #7
Aaron Baker
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Quote:
Whats the process for transferring unbuilt lower to the trust a simple bill of sale i assume then.
Ask your lawyer. He or she should have provided you with instructions/legal advice about how to use your trust.

Quote:
After that I assume I file the form 1 for the SBR correct?
Yes.

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Old July 31, 2014, 10:28 AM   #8
Arizona_Mike
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Having a seperate bank account for your trust is like having a seperate safe deposit box for a self-directed IRA. I understand the theory (not sure I agree in the trust case since the grantor is able to grant by definition), but has it ever made a practical difference?

Mike
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If it involves guns or paracord it does not count as macramé.
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Old July 31, 2014, 10:35 AM   #9
HRnightmare
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Typically it is given to the trust via an "assignment of property" and then added to the trusts Schedule A...but some trusts are different and I am NOT a lawyer...but thats how mine is done.
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Old August 1, 2014, 04:44 PM   #10
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HRnightmare has it right. You put an addendum page on your trust with the list of assets the trust owns. You can do this at the point of generating the trust without a bill of sale. When your trust is notarized, then it become effective and your items are now owned by the trust.
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Old August 1, 2014, 06:28 PM   #11
Aaron Baker
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Quote:
You put an addendum page on your trust with the list of assets the trust owns. You can do this at the point of generating the trust without a bill of sale. When your trust is notarized, then it become effective and your items are now owned by the trust.
Different trusts work differently, and your explanation doesn't cover a situation where a trust is already formed and you need to add additional property. Nor is it necessarily true for all trusts.

Further, the trusts I draft aren't "funded" in the sense of putting money in them or opening a bank account, which means this guy's trust is demonstrably not the same as all other trusts.

The best way to figure out how to use a trust is to ask the legal professional who drafted it for you. Only they know how your trust is drafted and how it works.

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Old August 1, 2014, 07:27 PM   #12
NativePride
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I got everything straight. The reason for funding is texas law it can be monies or property but an account maintained with as little as $1 ensures trust remains valid

Texas law requires a trust to be funded in order to be created. Section 112.005 of the Texas Property Code (Texas Trust Code) provides: “A trust cannot be created unless there is trust property.” Nominal funding is sufficient to create a trust where the other formal requirements for the establishment of a trust are met. In a battle over a large estate, the San Antonio Court of Appeals ruled that the funding of a trust with $1.00 was sufficient corpus to meet the funding requirements of a valid trust. In Re: Estate of Canales, 837, S.W.2d 662 (Tex. Civ. App. – San Antonio, 1992). The mere drafting and signing of a revocable trust does not create a trust unless it is funded. This is why some ATF examiners have questioned ATF Form 4 transferees regarding NFA trust funding. If a trust has not been funded the transfer may be to a non-existent entity and therefore invalid. A gun trust must be funded to be in existence and valid.
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Old August 1, 2014, 08:49 PM   #13
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Glad you got it sorted. Texas law is clearly very specific on the issue of funding.

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Old August 2, 2014, 12:02 PM   #14
Arizona_Mike
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Arizona law also requires funding. The first item on Schedual A is $1. In my case that $1 is physicallly attached to the trust origional (no bank account).

Trusts are creatures of state (or district or territorial law). There are more than 50 sets of rules and requirementzs.

Mike
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If it involves guns or paracord it does not count as macramé.
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Old August 2, 2014, 09:20 PM   #15
dogtown tom
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Quote:
NativePride I got everything straight. The reason for funding is texas law it can be monies or property but an account maintained with as little as $1 ensures trust remains valid

Texas law requires a trust to be funded in order to be created. Section 112.005 of the Texas Property Code (Texas Trust Code) provides: “A trust cannot be created unless there is trust property.” Nominal funding is sufficient to create a trust where the other formal requirements for the establishment of a trust are met. In a battle over a large estate, the San Antonio Court of Appeals ruled that the funding of a trust with $1.00 was sufficient corpus to meet the funding requirements of a valid trust. In Re: Estate of Canales, 837, S.W.2d 662 (Tex. Civ. App. – San Antonio, 1992). The mere drafting and signing of a revocable trust does not create a trust unless it is funded. This is why some ATF examiners have questioned ATF Form 4 transferees regarding NFA trust funding. If a trust has not been funded the transfer may be to a non-existent entity and therefore invalid. A gun trust must be funded to be in existence and valid.
Do not confuse "funding" with the need to open a bank account...........your NFA firearm can be the property that will "fund" the trust.

Sean Cody is a Houston attorney who may create more NFA trusts than any other Texas lawyer.
His FAQ has this to sayhttp://www.texasnfatrust.com/products.htm

Quote:
27. Should I open a bank account for my Texas NFA Trust?
Yes. However, if you do not, there has been no problem. At this time, there is no limitation on who may pay the transfer tax or pay for the item regulated by the National Firearms Act itself. However, I have am concerned that the BATFE may decide to attack the validity of a trust based on the co-mingling of assets. A simple work around is to use a postal Money order to pay for the item and the transfer tax.
Some attorneys prefer to fund the trust solely with $1............and not list the NFA firearm inventory in the trust document. (Jim Willi in Austin does it this way)

Being that the State of Texas NEVER receives a copy of your trust, as long as you have property in it..........it's funded and it's legal.
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