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Old August 25, 2014, 09:13 AM   #151
bikemutt
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Alrighty then, now the SBR thing makes perfect sense

Lets say I have an AR15 pistol lower I use with a 14" pistol upper and some day I'd really like to put a rifle stock on it and have an SBR, I'm assuming I'd have to fill out a form 4, or is there some other form since I'll be "manufacturing" an SBR?

Can I continue using the pistol lower (in a lawful configuration) while waiting 8+ months for approval?
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Old August 25, 2014, 09:17 AM   #152
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If you are making it yourself, it's a Form 1, not 4. (Technically, form 5320.1)

Yes, you can do whatever (else) you want with it while you wait on the form to come back.

Just don't configure it as an SBR until you have that in hand.
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Old August 25, 2014, 12:49 PM   #153
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I'm not disagreeing that one can change the upper on an SBR and sell it. But what is required is that other upper - something the makes it legal to sell means another $450 upper to do it. Not everyone has one, they may have nothing to swap on. If it's going to "cost" the owner a rifle upper to quickly sell, and he doesn't have one, it's not a solution. It's still an SBR with all the legalities.

The pistol, however, could trade hands for the appropriate cash with no modifications, SB15 included. That does have it's downside if there are other state requirements, too. It's a pistol and falls under those provisions.

What I'm reading are a lot of folks trying to defend the SBR, when the SB15 could be the easier solution, certainly cheaper, and doesn't have to jump thru restrictive hurdles in time and BATF applications. I'm getting the sense some are being a little defensive about the new kid on the block and don't like that the next guy over on the range got his without all the hassle - and can shoot it just the same, plus carry it and transport it with less hassles.

There's a new AR15 being marketed in CA, it's got a mag in the well with standard drop button, rifle stock, etc all outlawed under the AWB. But it's not - by the simple expedient of being .17 caliber, not .223.

I suppose I'll be able to read how it's not "as good" because the AWB owners got the rug pulled out from under them in the social hierarchy, not that the gun is actually less capable.

Again - SB15's and pistol buffer interest is up, are SBR applications rising, too? Or, are AR15 fans moving to an easier to own weapon with less administrative and financial hassles? I read them voting with their dollars and buying into the wrist brace builds.

How much mentally contrived discomfort that SBR owners perceive in the region of the maximus gluteus isn't selling the SBR application process. The BATF has changed the rules and the wrist brace is definitely an answer to the problem. SIG took the chance with a tactical end run and we get the win.

Huge victory here guys, embrace it. Let's move on to derailing the other NFA provisions. I'm reading some SBR defenders exhibiting Stockholm syndrome - they are expressing empathy for the stamp process as if it's justifiable and how things should be done, not as a onerous and disagreeable imposition against our 2A rights.

Time for an attitude check.
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Old August 25, 2014, 01:43 PM   #154
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Quote:
I'm reading some SBR defenders exhibiting Stockholm syndrome - they are expressing empathy for the stamp process as if it's justifiable and how things should be done, not as a onerous and disagreeable imposition against our 2A rights.
I'm not reading that at all. As I said much earlier in the thread I don't see how the arm brace helps with my 10/22.

Note that I'm not opposed to the idea, but as I don't own a lower that started life as a pistol it wouldn't really be much of a financial benefit. Anything I gain from not needing a stamp would be used to buy one plus the brace and internal parts. I already own a second AR so once I had the stamp then all I would need would be the barrel...which would also be needed for a pistol build so it's a wash.

Now if I were in the market for a new AR it would be a viable option, but it simply is not a lawful option for the guns I currently own. SBR is.
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Last edited by Elkins45; August 25, 2014 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Added second comment
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Old August 25, 2014, 02:17 PM   #155
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How can it be so arduous to get in, so easy to get out, very odd.
Since they rather you not have in the first place (the purpose of the arduous process), it makes actually makes a lot of since.


Quote:
'm reading some SBR defenders exhibiting Stockholm syndrome - they are expressing empathy for the stamp process as if it's justifiable and how things should be done,
Nonsense, I have both, and I like the SBR better, but the brace is a viable way to play if for whatever reason one doesn't want to go the NFA route.

Until you've actually shot them both side by side, saying how "ridiculous" they are is ridiculous.
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Old August 26, 2014, 09:49 AM   #156
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I'm not disagreeing that one can change the upper on an SBR and sell it. But what is required is that other upper - something the makes it legal to sell means another $450 upper to do it. Not everyone has one, they may have nothing to swap on. If it's going to "cost" the owner a rifle upper to quickly sell, and he doesn't have one, it's not a solution. It's still an SBR with all the legalities.
Uh...then why not just sell the upper? Suddenly, it's no longer an SBR. Then, if you really need to, sell the lower. Not that used lowers are going for much these days.

You don't have to have another upper. Once the SBR upper is gone, so is the SBR.
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Old August 26, 2014, 09:57 AM   #157
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There really is a ton of dumb excuses in here for why people love this sig brace.

FYI, it hasn't been "just recently" that you could shoulder a pistol. The Sig arm brace didn't make that magically legal. The ATF declared shouldering a pistol was not illegal years ago, thus you had people putting rubber cane tips on the pistol buffer tube. And cheek weld saddles.

Yall act like ar pistols are the newest screw you to the ATF and the best one that ever lived. Many of us have been shooting an AR pistol with a CAA tube saddle for years. Oh the total shock of that!
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Old August 26, 2014, 06:23 PM   #158
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Tirod ..... The BATF has changed the rules and the wrist brace is definitely an answer to the problem...
What rule did the ATF change in regards to the Sig Arm Brace?
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Old August 27, 2014, 09:10 AM   #159
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For you Texans that think the Sig arm brace "is as good as an SBR" consider this: an AR pistol with a Sig arm brace is still a pistol. Open carry of handguns in Texas has restrictions that SBR's and rifles do not.

Throw that AR pistol in the window rack of your pickup or back seat of your Prius and you commit a violation of Texas law. A handgun cannot be in plain view in a motor vehicle.

I wonder how many of those OCT nincompoops didn't think about that?
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Old August 27, 2014, 10:00 AM   #160
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Of course, that's TX, and other states have laws exactly opposite of that.
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Old August 27, 2014, 02:00 PM   #161
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I'm running out of reasons not to put in a form 1 on a stripped lower.... From this thread it looks like if I ever get tired of the SBR, I can sell the upper and really only be out the cost of the stripped lower and stamp. The Sig stock is cool, but for about the same cost it looks like I can go ahead and make the real deal.
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Old August 27, 2014, 02:18 PM   #162
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This thread sold me on an SBR instead of the arm brace as well. I had been considering the arm brace but after buying a $50 stripped lower and finding 300 BLK 10.5" uppers under $300 I was able to put together an SBR for about $700 including the tax stamp.

The pistol buffer was going to cost $40 plus $120 for the arm brace. I got a cheap stock+buffer tube for $40 so the tax stamp was only $80 more than the pistol with arm brace.
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Old August 27, 2014, 04:17 PM   #163
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Sam, last I checked the change in WA making SBRs legal to own and use omitted the key word "manufacture". So, us pedestrians may not be allowed to manufacture an NFA item. The way around that is to have a certain class dealer manufacture one for you, but the lower would need to sit in his/her safe until the form 1 is approved, and then I assume until the form 4 is approved.

If all I had to do was fill out a form 1 and send it in I'd be all over an SBR, I just don't think we are quite there yet in WA. I'd be thrilled to discover I'm wrong
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Old August 27, 2014, 05:10 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by ScottS View Post
Uh...then why not just sell the upper? Suddenly, it's no longer an SBR. Then, if you really need to, sell the lower. Not that used lowers are going for much these days.

You don't have to have another upper. Once the SBR upper is gone, so is the SBR.
Slow down there partner ... sell the upper, fine EXCEPT you still have an SBR lower which is still on the registry and it is still bound by all the NFA laws you agreed to when you made it an SBR.
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Old August 27, 2014, 05:28 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikemutt
Sam, last I checked the change in WA making SBRs legal to own and use omitted the key word "manufacture". So, us pedestrians may not be allowed to manufacture an NFA item. The way around that is to have a certain class dealer manufacture one for you, but the lower would need to sit in his/her safe until the form 1 is approved, and then I assume until the form 4 is approved.

If all I had to do was fill out a form 1 and send it in I'd be all over an SBR, I just don't think we are quite there yet in WA. I'd be thrilled to discover I'm wrong
It looks like the law is currently being interpreted to allow us to manufacture SBRs as well; the ATF is returning approved SBR Form 1s to people all over the state. It's true that the law is unclear, but -- at least for now -- it's being interpreted by the state and the ATF to mean Form 1s are OK. Of course, that could always change until the law is clarified.
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Old August 27, 2014, 05:51 PM   #166
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sell the upper, fine EXCEPT you still have an SBR lower which is still on the registry and it is still bound by all the NFA laws you agreed to when you made it an SBR.
Kimberkid, go back and read from post 142 down.

(Short version: Nope! )
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Old August 27, 2014, 06:20 PM   #167
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Sam1911 Of course, that's TX, and other states have laws exactly opposite of that.
And that is precisely why I wrote "For you Texans...."and mentioned TEXAS law.


Quote:
bikemutt Sam, last I checked the change in WA making SBRs legal to own and use omitted the key word "manufacture". So, us pedestrians may not be allowed to manufacture an NFA item. The way around that is to have a certain class dealer manufacture one for you, but the lower would need to sit in his/her safe until the form 1 is approved, and then I assume until the form 4 is approved.
A nonlicensee converting a rifle to SBR via a Form 1 is not a "manufacturer"..........he's a "maker". Manufacturers are required to hold an 07FFL.





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Old August 27, 2014, 08:47 PM   #168
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This thread is a really good example of why THR is so great. I've learned a bunch of stuff and thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. There were several very good points brought out on both sides of the conversation that really made me think about stuff I would have not otherwise considered.
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Old August 27, 2014, 10:18 PM   #169
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People in WA are acquiring SBR's in part by making/registering them on ATF form 1's. It appears that the word acquire is being interpreted rather broadly. I like. Two ATF e-form 1's approved in less than a month's wait. Yeehaww.

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Old August 29, 2014, 08:47 AM   #170
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Slow down there partner ... sell the upper, fine EXCEPT you still have an SBR lower which is still on the registry and it is still bound by all the NFA laws you agreed to when you made it an SBR.
Is it embarrassing to say condescending things like "Slow down there partner..." only to then say something that's already been proven factually incorrect in the very same thread? Just wondering...

Do a little research. It's only an SBR when it's an SBR, i.e. when it has the attributes that make it a Short Barreled Rifle under Title II. Absent the short-barreled upper it's simply an AR lower, albeit with some extra engraving. There is no legal requirement to have the resulting lower removed from the registry.

Or, as Sam so eloquently put it: Nope.
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Old September 4, 2014, 04:46 PM   #171
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Depends on the use. For a range toy, just use the brace (assuming AR/AK). If you're going to train with it, go with the SBR, the brace is sweet and holds up pretty well, but I think a stock would hold up better in the long run of abuse.

That being said;
I pad $94 for my Sig brace and buffer tube (so stock and tube you'd be buying on top of the tax stamp)
No wait time
No additional paperwork
AR/AK is still considered a pistol so if you have a CCW you can carry it loaded in vehicle if you'd like (I don't but like having the option lol).
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Old September 5, 2014, 07:38 PM   #172
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For you Texans that think the Sig arm brace "is as good as an SBR" consider this: an AR pistol with a Sig arm brace is still a pistol. Open carry of handguns in Texas has restrictions that SBR's and rifles do not.

Throw that AR pistol in the window rack of your pickup or back seat of your Prius and you commit a violation of Texas law. A handgun cannot be in plain view in a motor vehicle.

I wonder how many of those OCT nincompoops didn't think about that
Do they still even make window racks? I haven't seen one of those in years! I have a 3 gun rifle case that hangs off the back of the front seat in my Mega cab truck. The rifle case is black so it blends in with the black leather seats and with the Limo tint on the windows you can't see it.

Anyone with a rifle sticking up in the window is asking for someone to take it. Those days ar long gone.
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Old September 8, 2014, 08:59 PM   #173
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Old September 8, 2014, 09:54 PM   #174
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Do they still even make window racks?
Yup, I saw one I Walmart yesterday, but they still didn't have any 22LR.
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Old September 11, 2014, 01:00 PM   #175
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If the lower is purchased as a pistol, then registered as an SBR, can you then sell the upper and use it again as a pistol without a stock on it? It's "once a rifle, always a rifle" correct?

Can the SB15 be used to carry a spare magazine? YES/NO, and your reasons based on other BATF letters, which admittedly don't apply to anyone except the addressee.

Can you use a spare mag carrier on the pistol buffer tube? The CAA and Thorsden combo comes to mind. Or, a web carrier than slips over the tube and holds one mag. For that matter, two.

I pose these questions because that is exactly what the SB15 decision did, and it has had in impact on who is and isn't going to submit for the SBR stamp. I can hunt in MO with a pistol in any firearms season, and carry it loaded in my car, I can only huntiwith carbine or SBR in MO during the November portion, the gun has to be transported cased and unloaded.

Depending on your state, you either have advantages one way or other. Right now, I like MO more than TX. Glad I live here.
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