Concerning carrying illegally...

[Thefumegator]

Now before any of you fly off the handle, just let me clarify that this is just for hypothetical discussion. That's all.

I am not considering carrying illegally, nor have I, nor will I. This is just for discussion.

Okay... Now that that's clear. I just read about Ohio's refusal to obey the constitution, and it disturbs me greatly. So, what if your friend, John Smith, decided that he wasn't going to be a state-guaranteed victim, and was going to claim his rights as they were intended -- he straps on his sidearm, and carries on his life as usual.

I know this would vary according to your state, but what would be the consequences if he were "caught" exercising his God-given right? Would he be arrested? What would be the "usual response" to his carrying a gun?

How would you feel, knowing that your friend is carrying a gun "illegally?" Would you support him in his decision, join him, separate yourself from him, turn him in, what?

I am just curious. I hope this can just be a light-hearted "what if" thread.

Wes

[TallPine]

What John Smith does is no business of mine, as long as he doesn't hurt anyone else.

But if he is really carrying concealed, then I shouldn't even know about it either.

[cslinger]

Well my take is this. You takes your chances you pays your debts.

If one did this, safely and responsibly, then they will still get arrested if caught because they are breaking a law. Whether a law is stupid or not does not mean you will not pay the consequences for breaking said law.

Now breaking the law peacefully could be a form a peaceful civil disobediance in an attempt to both garner attention and make another attempt in court to overturn said law. Now here is where the dice are rolled. There is a small, albeit, tiny chance you will actually make change and said law will be ruled unconstitutional and the people will rejoice.

Unfortunitely the reality is chances are you are going to the pokey and depending on the laws regarding the carrying of a firearm you may lose your rights to own any firearms.

So you takes your chances and you pays your dues no matter the outcome.

Whatever John Smith does he must make his personal decision and then if he decides to break the law he should do so as carefully, safely and responsibly as possible. He should also prepare to be well spoken and ready for discourse regarding his decision to pursue civil disobediance and not simply yell "hell yeah" it's my right praise the Lord and pass the ammo.

Now me personally, I think John Smith should get a nice knife and learn how to use it.
Chris

[MacPelto]

IMHO, for what that's worth...a man does not harm me at all, merely by carrying a gun.

So, hypothetically, if someone that I knew was carrying without the proper 'permit', particularly in a state with a situation like that, I would not castigate him - it is his decision, between him and the state, and he is the one who must live with the consequences. I will not second-guess, nor would I shun him because he values his life over the law.

[Mark Tyson]

In my area they don't take too kindly to the commoners arming themselves without master's permission. There would be serious legal consequences. I would tell John Smith to only do it if he's in serious peril.

[brownie0486]

Thefumegator :

Ask yourself what happens when you get caught breaking the law and it's a felony.

There's the answer to your question.

Yes, carrying illegally and being caught will bring about an arrest, most likely felony charges. If convicted, time in prison, criminal record at the least of it, and if not prison, probation.

Now use the unauthorized/unlicensed firearm to defend with and get caught. More charges will follow as a rule.

As to hangin with them? Nah, everyone I know has a permit that carries. I don't want them around me [ I am licensed to carry ] when they are violating the law.

Quick scenario,

Your friend and you are on the streets. You are licensed, he is not, you are both packing heat.

Something goes down, you both draw and discharge the weapons, or maybe do no have to fire them but witnesses call the cops who arrive on scene.

You show the permit, he has none. He is charged accordingly with numerous violations. It goes to court, you testify as you were part of the scenario and need to tesify as tothe circumstances. The DA finds out you knew your friend was armed with no license.

The chief hears about it, calls you into the station and asks for your permit and rescinds same for the very reason you knew you were in the company of a person committing a felony.

Bad judgement on your part he says, and now can't depend on your judgement skills and rescinds your license at that time.

See where this can go?

No thanks

Brownie

[Edward429451]

Ask yourself what happens when you get caught breaking the law and it's a felony.

Uh huh. Now ask yourself what happens when you get caught by a scumbag gangsta type with a cheap 9mm jonesing for a fix, and all you have with you is your 'lawful knife'.

I'd rather be broke & locked up than dead. My family thinks so too.

Maybe your widow could sue the man for poor judgement in not allowing you to defend yourself.

See where this can go?

No thanks.

[Gordon Fink]

Now breaking the law peacefully could be a form a peaceful civil disobediance in an attempt to both garner attention and make another attempt in court to overturn said law.

I need a permit to carry a gun?

In all seriousness, though, I have often wondered why local and national RKBA groups don’t sponsor actions like those described by cslinger. Following the lead of other civil-rights movements, well-funded, non-violent demonstrations and protests could lead to success.

Why doesn’t this happen?

~G. Fink

[ceetee]

Tallpine said it best. Where I live, even if you dod have a permit to carry concealed, "concealed" means "concealed." If anybody happens to catch sight of your iron, even if you have a permit, it's called "reckless or unlawful display of a firearm," and you can go to the pokey.

I'd give up a bit of rapid access to gain complete concealment, and never let it be seen. And hope I'm never in a car accident.

What I choose to carry around with me is my business.

[B_Scott]

So that we are all on the same page and I can give you my (highly sought after) opinion - Does anyone know if it is a felony or a misdemeanor if John Smith is caught?
In Louisiana it is only a misdemeanor. If Ohio is the same then I would say that your friend made a good decision.

So really - I guess I would make a decision based on the consequences.
Would I join him? Hypothetically, yes. Really, no.

[RWK]

Presuming John Smith is detected carrying -- and he should not be -- a LOT will depend on the State (Ohio) law, on the attitudes of local law enforcement and local prosecutor, on the reputation and influence of Mr. Smith, and on local community mores.

For example -- and I am speculating, since it has been 35 years since I lived in Ohio -- let’s first assume Mr. Smith is a highly respect citizen of a small, rural Ohio village, who knows the Sheriff and the County Attorney, and who has never had any “criminal complications�. Under these circumstances, I would not be surprised if Mr. Smith was strongly cautioned not to carry ever again, but was not arrested or prosecuted.

However, now let’s presuppose Mr. Smith is an unknown, working class guy, who lives in downtown Cleveland. Further, let us presume the applicable State’s Attorney has political aspirations -- many do -- and the Chief of Police is firearms-intolerant. In this case, I fear Mr. Smith would be vigorously prosecuted and might go to prison, since there’s lots of potential media attention for the State’s Attorney and the Police Department in “being tough on gun crime�.

No one ever said life was fair . . .

[Erik]

"Would he be arrested?" Certainly. (Many LEOs will ignore if they can. Not all though.)

"What would be the "usual response" to his carrying a gun?" Arrest, prosecution, conviction of a misdemeanor; possibly a felony. (Familiarize yourself with the laws of anywhere you may be carrying.)

"How would you feel, knowing that your friend is carrying a gun "illegally?"" I have no friends who have admitted to carrying legally - see Brownie's post. (I also never ask.)

"Would you support him in his decision, join him, separate yourself from him, turn him in, what?" I would seperate myself from th individual - again, see Brownie's post.

Those willing to challenge via civil disobediance, more power to you.

Those merely breaking the law, the odds of you coming out as the criminal are higher than as the good guy. Just make an informed decision, and realize the consequences.

[Bigjake]

in ohio, any effective knives are banned as well.4 inches or better becomes a concealed weapon too. My stance is, if i feel the need, i'm carrying the dang thing and to hell with anyone who would take away my means of defence. I'd rather duke out the reprocusion in court for shooting some scumbag than be getting burried the same day.

[oldfart]

Interesting scenario. But I just happen to have a bit of experience with a similar situation.

I got mugged a few years ago by three hispanic gentlemen. They did a good job and I was leery of going out at night for quite awhile. Then I started carrying. I didn't see why I should have to ask permission to defend myself, so I didn't.

Eventually, my shirt rode up at an inopportune time and I suddenly found myself looking down the barrels of three Glocks. I was arrested and taken to a holding area where I watched TV until about 4 am, when my wife came to pick me up.

I was charged with carrying concealed without a permit. When the time came to go to court, the DA declined to pursue that charge since the gun wasn't concealed (if it had been, they wouldn't have seen it), but they did go ahead with a charge of carrying a loaded firearm within the city limits, a misdemeanor.

I explained to the judge about my experience with the muggers and that my neighborhood wasn't the safest place in town to live. He sat back and listened to me and then ordered me to take a two-hour gun safety course. He included, as part of the court order, a_statement that I was to be allowed to possess guns, though not concealed.

So, your Mr._Smith can probably expect anything from what I got to what some others have suggested he might get. It will all depend on the circumstances, the DA and the judge.
As a_side note, when the arresting_officers were 'taking me down', I was flat on my face on the sidewalk with my hands outstretched. One of them pressed his Glock against my head and told me that if I moved, he'd blow my head off. That's when he took my gun out of my belt. I remember thinking to myself; "With a Glock, he might not be close enough."

[grampster]

oldfart,

The IT guys at my office are sending you the bill for the keyboard cleanup and rewiring due to the short circuit from the coffee I spit up after innnocently being drawn in by your final comment. ROTFLMAO

grampster.

PS: I once transferred an older gentleman to the County "hotel" so that he could attend "classes" for a 30 day stretch for CCW. I asked him why he was carrying as he had never been arrested b/4 for anything, not even a traffic ticket. His reply......"Officer, I would rather have you catch me with it, than to have "them" catch me without it!"

[Keith]

When I lived in San Diego some years ago I carried illegally. The statute of limitations is long past, so...

Anyway, I had a compact 9mm S&W (don't remember the model) that I shot very badly - which was OK, because the gun generally jammed after a few rounds anyway...

I started carrying it after a very frightening experience on a freeway off ramp with some insane person who appeared to be freaking out on speed or pcp or something. I was able to evade that situation, but after that I kept the gun in my car, hidden out of sight but within quick reach. Or, at times, in my waistband at the small of my back - with no holster or anything. I didn't know much about handguns back then, but I knew I should have one!

It's a risky thing to do. At the time I was in the Coast Guard and I knew that cops would generally treat me pretty good in a traffic stop - they wouldn't dummy up some excuse to search my car since I was (sort of) in law enforcement, or at least military...

I figured I could get away with it, and I did.

And I would guess that if you look clean cut and have a late model suburban "white guy" car, you can probably get away with it as well. If you're black or hispanic or have long hair or something, you probably shouldn't try it.

Keith

[triggertime]

What someone chooses to do based on their own decisions is really no concern of mine. Sure, you can attempt to interfere and state your concern, but unless you are in that persons shoes, you really shouldn't interfere at all and you should just mind your own business.

Carrying illegally isn't really 'illegal' according the Second Amendment, it is just 'illegal' according to some misguided soul's interpretation of their own reality and the politics that accompany that interpretation.

As I see it, Bureaucrats work on the precept of ego and the emotions and the unnecessary fears of their insecure constituents. All of which should NOT apply to politics or to the laws that attempt to 'govern' us.

We are a diverse nation that shouldn't be mommied due to the irresponsibility of those who are unable to act responsibly or for someones inability to accept responsibility for their own personal safety. In otherwords, instead of depending on or expecting some outside party to rush to your aid in times of personal crisis, you should accept that responsibility yourself.

Now, I don't condone carrying illegally due to the ridiculous ramifications that accompany getting caught, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you to risk death or serious bodily injury either just because some egotist Bureaucrat thinks that you are automatically a danger to society the moment that you decide to accept responsibility for your own personal safety and go armed.

Life has many choices. But it is up to YOU to decide which path you choose to follow.

[Detachment Charlie]

Several years ago, I had a business office in one of Eastside Cleveland's more interesting neighborhoods. Leaving the office very late one night (1:15 a.m.), the Cleveland Police were in the parking lot. One patrolman noticed I had a S&W Mod. 10 tucked in my belt. The only thing he did was mention to me that I was probably a "little under-gunned" for the area.

[Top_Notch]

I'm not sure exactly what the consequences would be, but if I get caught I'll let you know.

-Illegal in Illinois.

[hd1.]

I thought my state would never have a "shall issue" law.
To make a long story short (you can guess the details), I ended up being charged with "possession of an unregistered handgun". A misdemeanor here. Then,
twenty years later , we get the "shall issue law". One of the disqualifing misdemeanors is, you guessed it, weapons offenses. Fortunately for me, they only count against you from the previous eight years.
A lot of the states are closer to getting "shall issue". It would be a shame to be disqualified from legal carry by "jumping the gun".
But each person has to make his own decision. Like the man said "We take our own chances and pay our own dues".

[Dave P]

Grampster - do I have this right? This man was locked up for 30 days because he was carrying? I sure hope there were extenuating circumstances that warranted such a stiff penalty. Was this in MI? When?

Dave

[Okiecruffler]

I would have never carried illegally, that's just wrong. And it certainly wouldn't have been a Colt Pony in an Uncle Mike's pocket holster with a spare mag in in my back pocket. Nope it sure wouldn't have been.

Hey, concealed is concealed. If your caught carrying concealed then you're not very good at concealing. Like mama always said, "practice makes perfect."

[outdoorman63]

i used to live in illinois and we know illinois will never have a ccw..my job put me in a position of having my life and my family's life threatened on numerous occasions....did i carry illegally ..yes....did i like it ...no...but my and my familys protection came first....now i live in missouri and in a couple of months i wont have to worry what is illegal and what isnt...sometimes you have to do what you have to do whether you like it or not and pay the debt if you get caught...sucks but is fact of life

[Balog]

brownie0486 wrote:

Ask yourself what happens when you get caught breaking the law and it's a felony.

There's the answer to your question.

The difference is that carrying a weapon to protect yourself is a fundamental right acknowledged by the Constitution. A law contrary to the Constitution is illegal, and the citizen is under no moral obligation to obey. It is, however, true that there might be severe repercussions for doing so. The situation is similar to a soldier who is issued an unlawful order. Theoretically he doesn't have to obey, but he might be shot if he doesn't. D@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't.

He also wrote

As to hangin with them? Nah, everyone I know has a permit that carries. I don't want them around me [ I am licensed to carry ] when they are violating the law.

And what if our benevolent government should make it "illegal" for us [the citizens] to exercise other of our supposedly "inalienable" rights? If Islam or Christianity is outlawed, would you refuse to associate with anyone "packing" a Quran or Bible? If "population controls" similar to China's are put in place, would you refuse to associate with any woman "illegally" carrying a child?

See where this can go?

P.S. Remember that this country was founded by a group of "radical criminals" breaking the laws which infringed on those rights granted them by God [or by the natural law for the atheists ]. Rights like the ability to carry a weapon for defense.

[Penforhire]

I guess I understand what drives people to carry illegally. You can't take lightly the whole thread of "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." I am sad that many regions, like mine, make it near-impossible to carry legally. It is like insurance. For 10,000 days I may not need a firearm in my public travels. But on day 10,001 if I need it and don't have it, I just lost one side of the insurance bet (and possibly my life). On the other hand, if you are arrested for illegal carry you just lost the other side of the insurance bet (and possibly some or all of my freedom).

I don't buy the 2nd Amendment responses because that's getting into semantics. Either the law is clear or it is not. This law may not be a good one but it is clear. If you do so for the sake of civil disobedience, better you than I as a test case.