Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Range Report

Badger Arms · May 27, 2004, 04:39 AM

Okay, took the gun out and put about 130 rounds through it. The ammo was old, tarnished remanufactured ammo that had been laying around for somewhere around 25 years. Even with the bad ammo, I was still able to print some good groups. See the accompanying pictures.

The gun recoils really light. Brass is dropped about 2-10 feet to the right. The location of the charging handle is a bit awkward at first, but it became natural as the session continued. I could trip the bolt handle from its locked position with my off-hand just as one would do with an MP-5. Nice. Because the magazine housing is integral with the grip, I could easilly find it without fumbling or looking as I had to do with the MP-5.

The sights were alright. The red post would be better if it were just black. Especially when you are shooting at orange-dot targets as I was TRYING to. At 25 yards, it was hard. At 50 and 100 yards I had no trouble as I was aiming at black. After the 25 yard group, I adjusted the sights. The 100 yard group is the larger one in the picture below. Note, I stupidly adjusted the front sight DOWN because I wanted to shift the group DOWN. Of course, you have to shift the front sight UP to shift the group DOWN. BAD BADGER, BAD!

I had a single STOVEPIPE malfunction. This was the top round of my 30-round magazine, so the drag of the bolt on the topmost round was most pronounced there. Since I was using light loads, I can understand a malfunction happening there. Funny thing was, I noticed the case was split! Not the fault of the gun, my P-11 popped out a split case too from the same lot. Bad ammo, not bad gun I'm going to say in this case. It chewed up the rest of the ammo no problem.

See below for the velocities. I chrony'ed 15 rounds from the P-11 and from the Sub-2000. This is 95gr ammo so it's pretty anemic by any standards. It's a wonder the Sub2K cycled as well as it did.

P-11___Sub2K
1100____1263
1096____1377
1112____1391
1095____1386
1070____1412
1107____1265
1112____1380
1107____1416
1104____1410
1062____1420
1083____1264
1071____1335
1125____1427
1122____1443
1117____1442

Overall, I liked the gun. It is refined enough for my taste. I wish there were a way to rotate the front sight housing instead of the windage adjustment screws (plastic). I also would have liked a different color front sight. Maybe they sell those? I think I'll keep the rifle deployed and not fold it that often. It is VERY short even when deployed being around 32 inches. It balances well and is more than accurate enough for what most people will use it for... plinking. I'd recommend it to anybody.

Here are the guns and magazines layed out:

Here is my first target:

Here is the target at 100 yards, see the little white rectangle between the bigger ones? That's it!

Here is what that target looked like after a 10 round string. This is really 10 rounds, the other two are higher on the target. BREATH CONTROL, BADGER! Remember, I adjusted the sight down which shifted my group UP. Stupid Badger...

Here are what three of my recovered cases looked like. These were the only ones I found split. The one that's upside down shows what the primer imprint from the firing pin looked like.

Badger Arms · May 27, 2004, 04:50 AM

BTW, if you want to see larger photos of the above, go to my gallery at: www.gunsnet.net

jacketch · May 27, 2004, 08:52 AM

Nice write up. Thanks.

firearms_instructor · May 27, 2004, 09:40 AM

Very nice write up. I've been wanting to get one of these since I handled one in a gun shop, primarily for my wife (yea, sure...)

One question, forgive me if you already answered it elsewhere, but which version is this? S&W 59, Beretta 92? I think you mentioned that the S&W mags were the cheapest to come by? Thanks.

I'd love to see what kind of velocities you'd get from some decent (will it take +P or +P+?) ammo.

tommytrauma · May 27, 2004, 12:50 PM

Badger,
blue force gear is selling a AR style replacement front sight for the sub, as well as an improved charging handle, a cheek piece and some other stuf. Their website blueforcegear.com isn't live yet, but it does at least provide a contact #. Write ups on the products have been posted in the rifle section of the bulliten board on ktog.org.

Badger Arms · May 27, 2004, 01:09 PM

Quote:

which version is this? S&W 59, Beretta 92?

Actually, somebody else said they were cheap. I bought this version because I have a KT P11 which takes the same mags and I also have a 5904. I've got the mags already, that was one of the selling features for me.

Badger Arms · May 27, 2004, 01:22 PM

Well, then. Here's Blue's replacement front-sight prototype. They say the price will be under $100! I suppose if I get to where I can't live with the Sub's sights, I'll jump on that.

Domino · May 27, 2004, 05:49 PM

Great report, been wanting one of those for a while thanks. Yeah, for the price I guess U really can't beat one of these. I'll look into one at the next gun show.

tommytrauma · May 27, 2004, 10:45 PM

Firearms_instructor

Quote:

One question, forgive me if you already answered it elsewhere, but which version is this? S&W 59, Beretta 92? I think you mentioned that the S&W mags were the cheapest to come by? Thanks.

That was probably me. I went with the Smith 59 mag version 'cause I could buy 17 rounders for ten bucks apeice, and larger ones for not much more.
ammoclip.com

I picked up 6 of the Eagle brand ones. Had to file the top of the mag catch hole just the tinyist bit on 2 of them, but they all function flawlessly since.

David Blinder · May 28, 2004, 09:33 AM

FWIW, I put the Blue Force front sight on just this week and it's a very worthwhile upgrade. Easy to install, well built and sturdy. You might also look at their charging handle as it is way better than the factory one. I also drilled out the rear ghost ring a bit which makes aquisition a bit faster. The kydex cheek piece provides a slightly better feel but is more of a personal choice thing than anything. I haven't seen the final version yet but they have a fast access sling also.

Badger Arms · May 28, 2004, 03:03 PM

Pac-Skin is cheaper than the $13 plus shipping they want for their cheek-piece. How much did you pay for your front sight delivered? I'm really considering it.

David Blinder · May 28, 2004, 05:14 PM

I swapped favors with him so I didn't have an outright cost.

AZRickD · May 28, 2004, 07:28 PM

What do you think of the trigger?

Weight? Mushy? Crisp? Overtravel?

What is the retail price vs gun shop price?

Here is another review...

http://www.gunblast.com/Kel-Tec_Sub2000.htm

Rick

Badger Arms · May 28, 2004, 10:39 PM

Trigger, mushy with a 'pencil-snap' feel at the end. Not pleasant, but after the range session it felt better. Maybe it will bet better. Weight is a bit steep and the bottom has a sharp molding edge that I need to break next time I think about it. Overtravel was not that big of a deal.

Price? I'm a dealer. I would sell it for around $290 or so.

forquidder · May 29, 2004, 01:24 AM

Hey Badger,

Is that a military range out on Ft. Rich?

Badger Arms · May 29, 2004, 03:17 PM

Yes, you got it. That is the sport fire (off duty) range at Ft. Richardson. The Pandau 600 yard range is to the left. Wonderful evening shooting. This was at 8:30 pm by the way. The sun is at your back and the wind is usually from the front or behind, rarely a crosswind. It goes out to 200 yards by the way.

**JShirley** · May 29, 2004, 05:36 PM

Very nice, thanks.

John

Stasher1 · May 30, 2004, 02:05 PM

Badger Arms, it's hard to tell from the pics, but it looks like you may have one of the older models with the straight ejection port hood. If so, be sure to order some ejection port clips from Kel-Tec to keep the spent brass from bouncing back into the action. It won't be a problem right away, but after 500-600 rounds, it probably will.

Other than that, they're great guns. Wish I never got rid of mine...

I think I'm gonna have to buy another one now.

azrael · May 30, 2004, 02:23 PM

Nice review Badger...

That p-11 looks nice as well...To bad it isnt in a holster...

Funny thing about the S2K...

I had a brain storm one day...A "tactical" thigh holster for the S2K...I figured if it was folded you would have the option of a carbine at your fingertips..more or less as a HD set-up or "range" gear that had alot of WOW factor...Never could get KT to come across with a dummy though..

BTW..I am making holster's today while watching Bubba Ho-Tep...There is no telling how they will turn out

Stasher1 · May 30, 2004, 03:55 PM

Blue Force Gear's charging handle, front sight, cheek piece, and "holster"

http://ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic....asc&highlight=

Badger Arms · May 30, 2004, 04:04 PM

Stasher, thanks for the info. I looked through KTrange and KTog and found information on the ejection port. See the below photo for the skinny:

Badger Arms · May 30, 2004, 04:06 PM

(deleted)

Badger Arms · May 30, 2004, 04:08 PM

(deleted)

May 27, 2004, 04:39 AM	#1
Badger Arms Member Join Date: January 1, 2003 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 3,668	Kel-Tec Sub 2000 Range Report Okay, took the gun out and put about 130 rounds through it. The ammo was old, tarnished remanufactured ammo that had been laying around for somewhere around 25 years. Even with the bad ammo, I was still able to print some good groups. See the accompanying pictures. The gun recoils really light. Brass is dropped about 2-10 feet to the right. The location of the charging handle is a bit awkward at first, but it became natural as the session continued. I could trip the bolt handle from its locked position with my off-hand just as one would do with an MP-5. Nice. Because the magazine housing is integral with the grip, I could easilly find it without fumbling or looking as I had to do with the MP-5. The sights were alright. The red post would be better if it were just black. Especially when you are shooting at orange-dot targets as I was TRYING to. At 25 yards, it was hard. At 50 and 100 yards I had no trouble as I was aiming at black. After the 25 yard group, I adjusted the sights. The 100 yard group is the larger one in the picture below. Note, I stupidly adjusted the front sight DOWN because I wanted to shift the group DOWN. Of course, you have to shift the front sight UP to shift the group DOWN. BAD BADGER, BAD! I had a single STOVEPIPE malfunction. This was the top round of my 30-round magazine, so the drag of the bolt on the topmost round was most pronounced there. Since I was using light loads, I can understand a malfunction happening there. Funny thing was, I noticed the case was split! Not the fault of the gun, my P-11 popped out a split case too from the same lot. Bad ammo, not bad gun I'm going to say in this case. It chewed up the rest of the ammo no problem. See below for the velocities. I chrony'ed 15 rounds from the P-11 and from the Sub-2000. This is 95gr ammo so it's pretty anemic by any standards. It's a wonder the Sub2K cycled as well as it did. P-11___Sub2K 1100____1263 1096____1377 1112____1391 1095____1386 1070____1412 1107____1265 1112____1380 1107____1416 1104____1410 1062____1420 1083____1264 1071____1335 1125____1427 1122____1443 1117____1442 Overall, I liked the gun. It is refined enough for my taste. I wish there were a way to rotate the front sight housing instead of the windage adjustment screws (plastic). I also would have liked a different color front sight. Maybe they sell those? I think I'll keep the rifle deployed and not fold it that often. It is VERY short even when deployed being around 32 inches. It balances well and is more than accurate enough for what most people will use it for... plinking. I'd recommend it to anybody. Here are the guns and magazines layed out: Here is my first target: Here is the target at 100 yards, see the little white rectangle between the bigger ones? That's it! Here is what that target looked like after a 10 round string. This is really 10 rounds, the other two are higher on the target. BREATH CONTROL, BADGER! Remember, I adjusted the sight down which shifted my group UP. Stupid Badger... Here are what three of my recovered cases looked like. These were the only ones I found split. The one that's upside down shows what the primer imprint from the firing pin looked like. __________________ We may or may not worship God, but John Moses Browning made sure we can choose.

May 27, 2004, 04:50 AM	#2
Badger Arms Member Join Date: January 1, 2003 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 3,668	BTW, if you want to see larger photos of the above, go to my gallery at: www.gunsnet.net __________________ We may or may not worship God, but John Moses Browning made sure we can choose.

May 27, 2004, 08:52 AM	#3
jacketch Member Join Date: May 3, 2003 Location: Richmond, Virginia Posts: 443	Nice write up. Thanks. __________________ Member of Virginia Citizens Defense League

May 27, 2004, 09:40 AM	#4
firearms_instructor Member Join Date: April 27, 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 378	Thank you! Very nice write up. I've been wanting to get one of these since I handled one in a gun shop, primarily for my wife (yea, sure...) One question, forgive me if you already answered it elsewhere, but which version is this? S&W 59, Beretta 92? I think you mentioned that the S&W mags were the cheapest to come by? Thanks. I'd love to see what kind of velocities you'd get from some decent (will it take +P or +P+?) ammo. __________________ http://freedomjoyadventure.blogspot.com/

May 28, 2004, 09:33 AM	#10
David Blinder Member Join Date: December 24, 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 76	FWIW, I put the Blue Force front sight on just this week and it's a very worthwhile upgrade. Easy to install, well built and sturdy. You might also look at their charging handle as it is way better than the factory one. I also drilled out the rear ghost ring a bit which makes aquisition a bit faster. The kydex cheek piece provides a slightly better feel but is more of a personal choice thing than anything. I haven't seen the final version yet but they have a fast access sling also. __________________ www.personaldefensetraining.com

May 27, 2004, 12:50 PM	#5
tommytrauma Member Join Date: December 25, 2002 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 438	Badger, blue force gear is selling a AR style replacement front sight for the sub, as well as an improved charging handle, a cheek piece and some other stuf. Their website blueforcegear.com isn't live yet, but it does at least provide a contact #. Write ups on the products have been posted in the rifle section of the bulliten board on ktog.org.

May 27, 2004, 05:49 PM	#8
Domino Member Join Date: April 17, 2004 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 644	Great report, been wanting one of those for a while thanks. Yeah, for the price I guess U really can't beat one of these. I'll look into one at the next gun show.

May 28, 2004, 03:03 PM	#11
Badger Arms Member Join Date: January 1, 2003 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 3,668	Pac-Skin is cheaper than the $13 plus shipping they want for their cheek-piece. How much did you pay for your front sight delivered? I'm really considering it. __________________ We may or may not worship God, but John Moses Browning made sure we can choose.

May 28, 2004, 05:14 PM	#12
David Blinder Member Join Date: December 24, 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 76	I swapped favors with him so I didn't have an outright cost. __________________ www.personaldefensetraining.com

May 28, 2004, 07:28 PM	#13
AZRickD Member Join Date: June 16, 2003 Posts: 1,698	What do you think of the trigger? Weight? Mushy? Crisp? Overtravel? What is the retail price vs gun shop price? Here is another review... http://www.gunblast.com/Kel-Tec_Sub2000.htm Rick __________________ If you're not just a little uncomfortable with your position, it isn't radical enough.

May 28, 2004, 10:39 PM	#14
Badger Arms Member Join Date: January 1, 2003 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 3,668	Trigger, mushy with a 'pencil-snap' feel at the end. Not pleasant, but after the range session it felt better. Maybe it will bet better. Weight is a bit steep and the bottom has a sharp molding edge that I need to break next time I think about it. Overtravel was not that big of a deal. Price? I'm a dealer. I would sell it for around $290 or so. __________________ We may or may not worship God, but John Moses Browning made sure we can choose.

May 29, 2004, 01:24 AM	#15
forquidder Member Join Date: December 28, 2002 Posts: 222	Range Locale Hey Badger, Is that a military range out on Ft. Rich?

May 29, 2004, 03:17 PM	#16
Badger Arms Member Join Date: January 1, 2003 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 3,668	Yes, you got it. That is the sport fire (off duty) range at Ft. Richardson. The Pandau 600 yard range is to the left. Wonderful evening shooting. This was at 8:30 pm by the way. The sun is at your back and the wind is usually from the front or behind, rarely a crosswind. It goes out to 200 yards by the way. __________________ We may or may not worship God, but John Moses Browning made sure we can choose.

May 29, 2004, 05:36 PM	#17
JShirley Administrator Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: VA Posts: 10,607	Very nice, thanks. John __________________ Wandering Thoughts Battle Blog The best gun is the gun you are best with..- Ed Ames

May 30, 2004, 02:05 PM	#18
Stasher1 Member Join Date: November 25, 2003 Location: Lilburn, GA Posts: 174	Badger Arms, it's hard to tell from the pics, but it looks like you may have one of the older models with the straight ejection port hood. If so, be sure to order some ejection port clips from Kel-Tec to keep the spent brass from bouncing back into the action. It won't be a problem right away, but after 500-600 rounds, it probably will. Other than that, they're great guns. Wish I never got rid of mine... I think I'm gonna have to buy another one now. Last edited by Stasher1; May 30, 2004 at 03:49 PM.

May 30, 2004, 02:23 PM	#19
azrael Member Join Date: January 5, 2004 Location: Staley NC Posts: 1,210	Nice review Badger... That p-11 looks nice as well...To bad it isnt in a holster... Funny thing about the S2K... I had a brain storm one day...A "tactical" thigh holster for the S2K...I figured if it was folded you would have the option of a carbine at your fingertips..more or less as a HD set-up or "range" gear that had alot of WOW factor...Never could get KT to come across with a dummy though.. BTW..I am making holster's today while watching Bubba Ho-Tep...There is no telling how they will turn out __________________ Dave Azrael's Custom Leather IM BACK!!!!!!!! BEHOLD....The "GOBLIN"!!! "There is no love in your violence" Kakihara (Ichi the Killer)

May 30, 2004, 03:55 PM	#20
Stasher1 Member Join Date: November 25, 2003 Location: Lilburn, GA Posts: 174	Blue Force Gear's charging handle, front sight, cheek piece, and "holster" http://ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic....asc&highlight=

May 30, 2004, 04:04 PM	#21
Badger Arms Member Join Date: January 1, 2003 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 3,668	Stasher, thanks for the info. I looked through KTrange and KTog and found information on the ejection port. See the below photo for the skinny: __________________ We may or may not worship God, but John Moses Browning made sure we can choose.

May 30, 2004, 04:06 PM	#22
Badger Arms Member Join Date: January 1, 2003 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 3,668	(deleted) __________________ We may or may not worship God, but John Moses Browning made sure we can choose. Last edited by Badger Arms; May 30, 2004 at 04:48 PM.

May 30, 2004, 04:08 PM	#23
Badger Arms Member Join Date: January 1, 2003 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 3,668	(deleted) __________________ We may or may not worship God, but John Moses Browning made sure we can choose. Last edited by Badger Arms; May 30, 2004 at 04:49 PM.

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