870 - Biggest limitations for HD

[dave3006]

I like the 870 for home defense. However, I see three big, big drawbacks in this role compared to my M1S90 .

1. Bolt does not lock back when gun is empty.

On my Benelli, you know without a doubt that you have shot the gun dry. With a pump, in the heat of battle, it is very easy to see how you could work the action when the gun is dry. I know all about shoot one/load one. I know how to do a chamber check. However, the ability to produce a click instead of a bang under stress is a big limitation.

2. Speed

I am twice as fast with my Benelli on multiple targets. My last shotgun class, we had to separate the guns in to two groups to make our competition fair. I know people claim pumps are faster. However, I have taken a 4 day class at Frontsight and 3 two day classes at various other schools. I have not witnessed anything even close.

3. Short shucking

I wish I would have been able to count the number of times I have seen pump gunners short shuck their shotgun understress and produce a click instead of a bang in my classes. I have seen rookies, cops, and instructors do this. My M1S90 has never malfunctioned once. I know all about training. However, I also know about Mr. Murphy and what stress does to even trained individuals. I think this is more of a problem than most people want to admit.

There you have it. I sincerely like the 870. However, my opinion is that it is second place to my Benelli for home defense.

[grimlock]

Well sure, I'd hope you get something extra by paying twice as much.

The Benelli is a cool gun, kind of like the Swiss Army Knife of shotguns, what with the semi/pump conversion. I'd say the 870 is the best budget firearm for HD when you consider reliability/parts replacement/custmization.

Edit: I coulda sworn you were talking about an m3s90.

[Smoke]

Glad you found a platform that works for you.

I've admired the Benellis for a while, still don't have one....yet.

Don't short sell teh 870 that easily though. Benellis don't have the as much time under their belt as the 870. See if that Benelli is still going strong in 50 years.

I wish I would have been able to count the number of times I have seen pump gunners short shuck their shotgun understress and produce a click instead of a bang in my classes

I haven't seen this too often...maybe I don't go to as many classes. I had a problem once while trying to manipulate the 870 while holding a 6cell maglight. The empty cases were hitting the end of the light and not ejecting fully. Auto wouldn't have helped if I was still blocking the ejection port.

When a 870 jams, it can usually be fixed with a good hard slam of the butt on the ground. Autos take longer to clear.

Speed? I've seen pump gunners outrun many auto gunners.

I also see no advantage in the bolt locking open....how is it better to have the bolt locked open when you pull the trigger on a dry gun than to have the bolt closed ona dry gun?

Smoke

[Mulliga]

1. Bolt does not lock back when gun is empty.

Well, I can always tell if I have a shell going into the chamber just by the sound/vibration that goes through the receiver when a fresh shell is pumped in. Shotguns don't hold very many shots regardless, so I just get in the habit of roughly keeping track of how many I have left in the mag. On the other hand, a bolt-hold open does make loading a shell into the chamber slightly easier (don't have to worry about accidentally pushing the foregrip forward).

2. Speed

I suppose I'd have to agree. I pump pretty fast, but it's not quite as fast as a gas-operated action. Maybe I need more practice. Anyway, the difference is there, but I can live with it.

3. Short shucking

This is honestly not a problem with 99.9% of decent shotgunners. Only way I can see myself short-stroking it is if someone hits me WHILE I'm racking the sucker forward. An autoloader has its own set of problems (ammo sensitivity, "limp-wristing" it, etc.).

Basically, everyone has their own ideal platform.

[Dave McCracken]

I'm the last person on Earth to tell you to do something My Way when your way may work. After all, it's your butt on the line and you're old enough to call your shots.

If the Benelli works for you, great. I think they're good shotguns, though overpriced. 870s are GREAT shotguns.

I haven't seen that many short shucks, even when instructing rank beginners, but then I'm only 57.

I'm also not terribly fast, but I can outtrun a fair number of auto folks with an 870. I'm definitely faster than folks with A-5s.

Personally, I see little advantage to a run dry auto over a run dry 870. Care to enlighten me? Thanks...

[dave3006]

Please don't get me wrong. I don't hate 870s. I just am pointing out some things I see as limitations with the hope that someone may point out something I had not thought of.

Regarding running it dry: When I shoot my M1S90 on the last round the bolt locks back and it is extremely obvious I need to reload. It seems that the 870 could have the possibility of the user, after the last round, working the action and producing an empty chamber. You think your gun has an extra round. But, it doesn't.

Jamming: When I insert a round into my Benelli, they "click" in. You can feel when the gun has accepted the shell. Several times with the 870, the user in a class did not insert the shell all the way into the tube. The instructor had to slam the butt of the gun on the ground because it was stuck under the lifter. It took him a couple tries on one occasion.

The pump also seemed to be harder to work from prone or kneeling.

Just my $0.02.

[Smoke]

I'm still to dense to see the advantage of the Benelli when running it dry.

Are you saying when the gun is up in firing position you can see the bolt stay open? Or is the first indicator going to be you pulling on the trigger and nothing is happening?

Smoke

[9mmMike]

The pump also seemed to be harder to work from prone .....

That's the only thing with which I can agree. Kneeling? How could that possibly make a difference?
As far as reliablilty.....
At the class I took at Comtac there was one Benelli. It was the only gun that had problems. None of the 870's had a glitch, mechanical or operator induced. The sole 1100 also ran trouble free.
Does this make the Benelli bad? Probably not. My experience differs from yours however.
If you see a lot of folks short-stroking pump guns at class, perhaps that's why they're at class? Maybe they are trying to learn?
Go to a three gun match and, if there are any pumpgunners, see how many have problems.
I dare say that judging a guns performance by watching newbies shoot is not the best method.
Mike

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Basically, everyone has their own ideal platform.

Get a Glock.

[VeT|Us]

Love the Benelli, love the 870.

When I first was shopping for a shotgun I wanted the 'black tacticalz0r deathray shotgun", you all know the deal.
Went home with a 20" riflesighted Express Magnum instead and lots of shells. never any regrets.

I've short-stroked before, but not after I almost started to abuse the gun.
I slam that forend back, and slam it forward. Only problems I've had with my 870 was when I started to 'baby' it, and shortstroked.

Ive never gone prone with the shotgun. Maybe I'll have to try it, but prone doesnt seem like a position I'll be in, in e.g a HD scenario.

The one you train the most with is the best for you.

[dave3006]

I have a Glock. I have 7. Not one malfunction over thousands and thousands of rounds in 12 years.

You feel the bolt lock back on the benelli just like you feel it with an AR15 or Mini-14. You also feel the fact that the bolt did not cycle forward.

I have seen very experienced people short shuck an 870.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

dave3006,

I was just having fun.

A lot of discussions end up as "pump vs. auto". My remark was a play on the "1911 vs Glock" pee-pee match.

Like you said, the Benelli feels very much like an ar15, mini14, m1a, etc. etc. upon firing the last cartridge.

Pumps ALSO feel nearly the same way.

I can tell when a pump is run dry.

For some, it takes getting used to, for others it's blatantly obvious.

What we're feeling for is the lack of force after the last shot as you cycle to eject the round. If the tube were loaded, a shell would be thrown onto the carrier. I can feel that.

BTW, I'm a DIE-HARD Benelli fan. I've passed up PLENTY of bargain 870 WMs because I'd rather have another Benelli M1S90. 870s don't do it for me. However, I do disagree with you on the "bolt hold open" justification.

That doesn't mean that #1 isn't a valid justification, it just means that it's your justification.

Continue to rock on!

Jim

[Island Beretta]

I think the disadvantages are manipulating that pump in difficult posns. such as crouched behind a sofa or in a narrow passageway. Also if you sustain an injury to either hand you are in even hotter water.

If you remember the Miami massacre the policeman who fired one of the fatal shots at the robbers had his shoulder damaged and had difficulty racking his 870 pump. Heard he later switched to a Benelli M1 super 90..

[dave3006]

Duke, no offense taken. Actually, I have learned the most when people vigorously challenge or defend a position. I am going to have to look into "feeling" the 870 chamber shells. Maybe I overlooked this?

For shortshucking, I may want to consider going to a 13" stock. I am 5'9". But, I always feel like I am overextended. Anyone think this reduces short shucking?

[Andrew Wyatt]

mossbergs are a bit harder to feel when they go empty, because the carrier doesn't snap up and down vigorously.

i do think some sort of last round hold open device would be the bee's knees for a pumpgun

[Bullet Bob]

Actually the biggest limitation for an 870 or ANY gun is the nut behind the bolt.

[Dave McCracken]

I'm not chalking you off as an 870 hater. Discussions like this can yield light or merely heat. Let's go for light....

The Flextab mutation of the carrier handles the loading glitch where the inexperienced operator fails to get the shell past both latches. So does proper loading technique. I had maybe 10K of rounds behind me in diverse 870s when I learned one could jam the works up. I was nonplussed. I'd no idea whatsoever that one could jam up an 870.

"Rack it like you meant it" was what I'd tell rookies back in the day. Pumping hard doesn't let short shucking happen much. Fast doubles at clays or small plates at "Practical" matches helps here as well as aiding fast target acquisition.

Prone firing with a pump is hard on the elbows, especially on concrete. Not impossible though.

Thinking about it, I can tell when an 870's dry under normal conditions. I don't let it happen much.

IMO, shorter stocks have few drawbacks, but it'd take actual use for YOU to find out if it does reduce short stroking.

[sm]

In anything it boils down to this. 90% is mental and the other 10% is physical. You take care of the physical stuff, like equipment that fits the shooter for task, Training, practice, and maintence of equipment and shooter. Once this 10% is figured out and maintained, that other 90% deserves the most attention. Mindset.

If that means one chooses a baseball bat for HD use , great. Makes no nevermind if wood or aluminum. One found used and dinged or brand new. Less monies spent or more monies spent.

Beware the man that shoots one gun - he knows it.

[dave3006]

I violently disagree with the "it is all training" mentality. This quote is often used to justify substandard equipment or methods. You have to plan for things to go wrong. You will screw up and your equipment will screw up.

Therefore, pick the equipment with the least probability for human or mechanical induced problems. Nothing ever goes perfect in combat. Even for trained people.

For what it is worth, the Japanese believed they were going to beat the US because of the superiority of the Japanese spirit. They soon learned that the Americans with their superior equipment and reasources would overwhelm them.

Pick the plan or gun that requires the least amount of perfection to be successful.

[Duke of Lawnchair]

dave3006,

I do find some truth to what you say about training.

In a world of weapons systems, one cannot overlook the operator as a major component of the system. The user could/can fail just as often as the weapon, if not more. That is why people train, in order to mitigate that risk and that is why people select certain weapons in order to complete their weapons system.

Some feel that the more you practice and train, the less the risk of their weapons system failing. Others will feel that along with some training, the firearm that is chosen will make up for certain user inadequacies (short-shucking, etc.). Then there are those who will practice and train a lot, but also rely/choose a weapon that they believe is the best there is.

For some, it is a pump.

For others, it is an auto.

It just so happens that the both of us have selected a firearm (Benelli M1s90) which we feel to be the closest to perfection as possible. Does this mean that we forego training and rely on our "perfect" weapon? That's up to us. Personally, I'm all for training and practice in conjunction with a gun that I know best.

The flip side to this, is that there are many who believe that we have selected a firearm that is inherently flawed.

Jim

[MrMurphy]

While I'm a pump man (have owned an 870, a 500 and now a Nova SP), I have no problem with semiautos. I like Benellis, though I prefer pumps for pure reliability. The Remington 1100/1187s I would take over a Benelli, though I think for pure semiauto shotgun reliability, the Saiga AK shotguns can't be beat...... the Kalashnikov system has an unsurpassed record for reliability, and with a shotgun, the whole AK's are inaccurate thing (not true) isn't even a topic.... it's a 20-30 yard weapon except with slugs. And the 5-round detachable magazine makes reloading much faster.

[Generic]

I keep an 870 in the closet for HD, but I have a couple of different semis I shoot now and then.

While many people will claim that pumps can be faster than semis I can empty the magazine far faster with a semi (even in 'Model 12 Mode'). I don't seem to be able to hit targets any faster though. In the time it takes me to recover from recoil and get the barrel back on target I can cycle a pump. Maybe it is technique, but pumping a pump doesn't affect my sight picture to any noticeable degree. So, yes, a semi is faster to fire but not necessarily faster through multiple targets.

As others have mentioned, the 870 has a distinct feel and sound when it is empty. Never been consciously aware, but now that I think about it I always know when it is emtpy, with and without ear plugs.

I shoot skeet with a guy who loves pumps. He has been shooting skeet with them longer than I've been alive, but I still see him short shuck one every so often. Thats probably the most distinct advantage of a semi in a HD role.

[Dave McCracken]

My 870s are the perfect defensive shotgun.

For me.....

Any RELIABLE repeating shotgun is an awesome weapon when used by a trained shooter within its limits.

Not for long range engagements, not for marauding hordes of mutant undead zombies, not for non shooters.

As for semi autos, any that pass the 200 round test under less than critical conditions with duty ammo and are used by those skilled in their employment have my blessing.

[Denny Hansen]

Go with what you feel more comfortable with.

As far as running the gun dry, I don't see how would a bolt-hold open device could help a trombone action if you're talking about a one-shell emergency reload.

For an auto, you drop a round in the chamber, hit a button to close bolt and get back in the fight. For a pump you drop a round in the chamber and close the action. If you're talking about fully reloading the piece, it's even more complicated with certain auto designs than it is for most pumps. I admit that I only have two brain cells remaining, but it seems to me a bolt hold open would serve only to complicate the manual of arms on a beautifully simplistic design.

As for faster hits, I've seen some auto shooters empty their guns faster with lighter loads. When talking about "social" loads such as buck and slugs, it has been my experience that recoil pretty much negates any advantage the auto has for the vast majority of shooters.

Just my .02.

Denny

[Harold Mayo]

I'm not exactly championing anything, but I thought that I'd throw in my $0.02...

Despite the horror stories that I've read online about Benelli malfunctions, I've never seen it happen in training or competition. Never. I've seen a lot of problems out of 870's, though 99% are operator-induced. I own both but prefer the Benelli.

My preference for the Benelli?

Manual of arms is more like other firearms that I have, for one. My off-hand is not working back and forth with any other firearm that I own. Shooting the Benelli isn't much different than shooting the AR or the M1A.

Secondly, in gunfights (not that I've been in any but from statistics) you see a lot of wounds to the hands and arms. It is much harder to work an 870 if you have only one working arm. I can work the Benelli with only one, even if I don't like it much. Yes, you can use the 870 with one arm but nowhere near as well.

Third, I like the bolt staying open when the gun runs dry. I can automatically throw something in the chamber, hit the button, and have a gun ready to run while I'm loading it. You can do the same thing with the 870 but it's a tad more difficult.

Fourth, the Benelli IS easier to use from a variety of positions.


I will admit to taking the 870 with me in the field, though. It's just a more robust machine. My perfect shotgun would be a Benelli with a steel receiver.