3 gun guns

**Brian Williams** · December 29, 2002, 10:22 PM

What guns to use

Starter level (cheap)

Novice

Advanced

I am thinking
Glock 19 what I have
Win 1300 on layaway 22" w/choke tubes
AR cav arms inexpensive and lightweight

What accessories?
how many Mags?
slings?

Wakal · December 29, 2002, 10:44 PM

The rules vary wildly for the various 3-gun competitions...sounds like you have a very workable setup planned for most anything, depending if you hang optics off that AR or not.

When I started with IPSC 3-gun, I used:

Para P14 .45ACP
Rem. 870 12 gauge with a +2 tube and a Sidesaddle
AR M4 with iron sights

Now I have two rigs, one for Open and one for Limited:

STI .40
Win. SuperX2 with a 8-round Sidesaddle and a 2-round "oh crap" round holder (holds two shells horizontally just forward of the ejection port)
AR HBAR with Tritium front sight, spare mag holder on the stock.

STI 9 by 23 full up geeky racegun
USAS-12 with a dot sight on a "Scout" type carry handle rail.
AR flattop with a 3.5-10 Leupold on top, Optima at 2:00 on the handguard, spare mag holder on the stock.

I should probably trade that USAS in for a Gold with a Briley mag tube extension, comp, and speed-loader...but I really like getting cussed out about the 10-round mags

Started at "C", now I'm working my way up through A class...and don't see much gear difference between my current setups and the top shooters.

Alex

Andrew Wyatt · December 30, 2002, 12:30 AM

this concept of "guns for a specific non combat or hunting purpose" eludes me.

I use the same guns for 3 gun stuff as i do for HD and carry (when I'm allowed to by law)

that said, my mini-14, mossberg 500 with GR sights and my single stack 1911 get used for 3-gun in additon to their other uses.

Wakal · December 30, 2002, 02:26 PM

I started off with that frame of reference, too. However, I decided after a while that winning was fun...and now my carry guns have a lot of the "competition" mods because I know they will run every time...more accurately and faster.

For example, why limit myself to a 7-shot 870 when I know that my SX2 takes up just a few more inches under the seat and has 9 rounds that can be delivered on target a whole lot faster...

Alex

Andrew Wyatt · December 30, 2002, 02:46 PM

I know what you're saying. I just don't want myself to start thinking that "this is my Such and such gun, and it has no other purpose" like i've seen others do.

that said, I don't compete in USPSA or IDPA, either. The group who's events i attend are much more into the "this is not a game, it's valuable training for reality" aspect of competetive shooting than even IDPA is.

I think that focusing on building a good "combat" gun and training mercilessly with it will not only make you better at IDPA or IPSC, but it'll make you better at defending yourself with it should the time come.

Correia · December 30, 2002, 03:36 PM

I use the following:

Kimber Poly .45
Remington 870 (18 inch, open choke, bead sights, +2 extension)
L1a1 FAL (when I'm feeling rich enough to burn lots of .308) or a 7.62x39 Vepr K.

Personally I like using the same guns for serious use and competition. Not for any ultimately tactical reason or anything like that, it is just that these are the guns that I use for everything. I just don't like switching back and forth between different guns as I feel like I don't ever get as good as I could if I just stuck with one.

I carry a 1911 every day but not the poly Kimber as the base of the mag well is just too wide under anything other than a heavy coat. Other than that it is what I'm used to.

I've been using the same 870 since I was 12 years old.

The only weird thing that I'm planning on in the future for my 3 gun guns is to build up a Race AK.

Don't worry, it will still be practical, but I want to be different.

Andrew Wyatt · December 30, 2002, 05:14 PM

A race AK, Hrrm.

It would have to have an ACOG on a dustcover mount that wobbles, Black plastic stocks, a trigger job, hard chromed internals and externals, and a comp the size of a beer can.

Really, though, I see no reason why an AK couldn't be made to not suck, by putting decent sights and a good trigger on it.

Correia · December 30, 2002, 06:58 PM

Andrew, I knew you would catch the vision!

Seriously though. I'm going to start with a Vepr in .223 or 5.45. Muzzle brake. Trigger job. Galil style sights on the dust cover. Extended mag release that I can operate with my trigger finger. (I can already operate the safety with my trigger finger).

Then I'm going to quit shaving, and show up at the match in Russian camoflage and a big fur hat.

Wakal · December 30, 2002, 11:13 PM

Show up like that to the Texas State 3-Gun match and I'll buy your lunch all three days

Our local scorekeeper decided that he hates AR's and refuses to jump on the bandwagon with a gun he hates. So...he has spent countless hours rigging a Mini-14 with a pistol grip and a 45-degree forend mounted Optima. Machined his own comp, too. I'll see if I can dig up pictures of that and his Totally Tactical 12 (tm)...Model 12 with a 10-shot tube, Cutts comp, Optima, custom high-cheekpiece stock...

Alex

Correia · December 30, 2002, 11:57 PM

Wakal, I wish I could come. But even if I did I get the feeling that the fur hat would get really warm in Texas.

Probably in better answer to the first poster, from what I've seen the experience level of the shooter matters less than the type of match being shot as far as equipment goes.

If you are shooting in some of the USPSA matches you can see some pretty tricked out guns. I got to play with a really nice JP Enterprises Race AR a little while ago. It had a muzzle brake that looked like it came off of a 105 mm howitzer. It had 2 optical sights, a Leopold on the flat top, and an Optima on the float tube, but kind of on the side so that you would mount the gun on an angle for close and fast shots (I can't say I liked that much). Recoil was non existant, and it was supposed to be a 1/4 MOA rifle. Now if you are shooting in the WC3gun then that wouldn't be allowed as they have equipment rules that try to keep the guns more realistic.

Most common guns in our local matches are ARs followed by AKs. The AKs really aren't at that much of a disadvantage as our longest shots at our local range don't go much past 200 yards, 300 if you really move stuff around. Some of us use FALs or M1a. There will also be a scattering of things like the SKS.

We have folks show up with all manner of rifles for their first match. A really good feeling is to step up to the line with your $600 FAL built out of spare parts and beat the guy with the JP. It is the man not the machine that wins.

I have a Cav Arms AR, but I have not played with it much yet. So I don't have a real strong opinion on it one way or the other yet. I don't think light weight is that much of an advantage. Having a bit more weight out front will steady you for the long shots, but you may not swing as fast on the CQB style stages. Depends on what you are more comfortable with.

As for shotguns you will be able to hang in there just fine with your Winchester. It is a fine pump. Pumps are a bit slower. I'm a pumpgunner myself, but I will be the first to admit that if you take 2 shotgunners of equal skill, and put them on a speed stage, one with a pump, one with an auto the auto will usually win. At the higher levels you will see almost nobody run with a pump unless they are very seriously minded (like Andrew Wyatt was talking about) and then they will use their duty or home defense gun.

I usually beat most everybody at our local matches in the shotgun stages, and that is with my pump, but I have practice a ton with it. When I go to bigger matches and run my pump I will still finish well, but anybody with equal skill but an auto will take me.

Your Glock 19 is a fine gun. As long as it fits you and you practice with it you will be fine. If Glocks are your thing you may want to take a look at some of their Practical models. I'm a 1911 kind of guys but some of my best buddies swear by their Glocks. And pistol is my weakest weapon in 3 gun, so I get beat by those damn Glockers enough that I can't make fun of their guns.

Andrew Wyatt · December 31, 2002, 02:36 AM

Correia speaketh the truth.

It truly is the indian, not the arrow.

December 29, 2002, 10:22 PM	#1
Brian Williams Moderator Join Date: December 22, 2002 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 7,350	3 gun guns What guns to use Starter level (cheap) Novice Advanced I am thinking Glock 19 what I have Win 1300 on layaway 22" w/choke tubes AR cav arms inexpensive and lightweight What accessories? how many Mags? slings? __________________ Watch out for the Stobor No trees were harmed in the production of this message. However, a rather large number of Electrons and Magnetic Particles were somewhat inconvenienced.

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December 29, 2002, 10:44 PM	#2
Wakal Member Join Date: December 27, 2002 Location: Von Ormy, Texas Posts: 442	The rules vary wildly for the various 3-gun competitions...sounds like you have a very workable setup planned for most anything, depending if you hang optics off that AR or not. When I started with IPSC 3-gun, I used: Para P14 .45ACP Rem. 870 12 gauge with a +2 tube and a Sidesaddle AR M4 with iron sights Now I have two rigs, one for Open and one for Limited: STI .40 Win. SuperX2 with a 8-round Sidesaddle and a 2-round "oh crap" round holder (holds two shells horizontally just forward of the ejection port) AR HBAR with Tritium front sight, spare mag holder on the stock. STI 9 by 23 full up geeky racegun USAS-12 with a dot sight on a "Scout" type carry handle rail. AR flattop with a 3.5-10 Leupold on top, Optima at 2:00 on the handguard, spare mag holder on the stock. I should probably trade that USAS in for a Gold with a Briley mag tube extension, comp, and speed-loader...but I really like getting cussed out about the 10-round mags Started at "C", now I'm working my way up through A class...and don't see much gear difference between my current setups and the top shooters. Alex

December 30, 2002, 12:30 AM	#3
Andrew Wyatt Member Join Date: December 25, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, California Posts: 3,546	this concept of "guns for a specific non combat or hunting purpose" eludes me. I use the same guns for 3 gun stuff as i do for HD and carry (when I'm allowed to by law) that said, my mini-14, mossberg 500 with GR sights and my single stack 1911 get used for 3-gun in additon to their other uses.

December 30, 2002, 02:26 PM	#4
Wakal Member Join Date: December 27, 2002 Location: Von Ormy, Texas Posts: 442	I started off with that frame of reference, too. However, I decided after a while that winning was fun...and now my carry guns have a lot of the "competition" mods because I know they will run every time...more accurately and faster. For example, why limit myself to a 7-shot 870 when I know that my SX2 takes up just a few more inches under the seat and has 9 rounds that can be delivered on target a whole lot faster... Alex

December 30, 2002, 02:46 PM	#5
Andrew Wyatt Member Join Date: December 25, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, California Posts: 3,546	I know what you're saying. I just don't want myself to start thinking that "this is my Such and such gun, and it has no other purpose" like i've seen others do. that said, I don't compete in USPSA or IDPA, either. The group who's events i attend are much more into the "this is not a game, it's valuable training for reality" aspect of competetive shooting than even IDPA is. I think that focusing on building a good "combat" gun and training mercilessly with it will not only make you better at IDPA or IPSC, but it'll make you better at defending yourself with it should the time come.

December 30, 2002, 03:36 PM	#6
Correia Moderator Emeritus Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: SLC Posts: 10,346	I use the following: Kimber Poly .45 Remington 870 (18 inch, open choke, bead sights, +2 extension) L1a1 FAL (when I'm feeling rich enough to burn lots of .308) or a 7.62x39 Vepr K. Personally I like using the same guns for serious use and competition. Not for any ultimately tactical reason or anything like that, it is just that these are the guns that I use for everything. I just don't like switching back and forth between different guns as I feel like I don't ever get as good as I could if I just stuck with one. I carry a 1911 every day but not the poly Kimber as the base of the mag well is just too wide under anything other than a heavy coat. Other than that it is what I'm used to. I've been using the same 870 since I was 12 years old. The only weird thing that I'm planning on in the future for my 3 gun guns is to build up a Race AK. Don't worry, it will still be practical, but I want to be different.

December 30, 2002, 05:14 PM	#7
Andrew Wyatt Member Join Date: December 25, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, California Posts: 3,546	A race AK, Hrrm. It would have to have an ACOG on a dustcover mount that wobbles, Black plastic stocks, a trigger job, hard chromed internals and externals, and a comp the size of a beer can. Really, though, I see no reason why an AK couldn't be made to not suck, by putting decent sights and a good trigger on it.

December 30, 2002, 06:58 PM	#8
Correia Moderator Emeritus Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: SLC Posts: 10,346	Andrew, I knew you would catch the vision! Seriously though. I'm going to start with a Vepr in .223 or 5.45. Muzzle brake. Trigger job. Galil style sights on the dust cover. Extended mag release that I can operate with my trigger finger. (I can already operate the safety with my trigger finger). Then I'm going to quit shaving, and show up at the match in Russian camoflage and a big fur hat.

December 30, 2002, 11:13 PM	#9
Wakal Member Join Date: December 27, 2002 Location: Von Ormy, Texas Posts: 442	Show up like that to the Texas State 3-Gun match and I'll buy your lunch all three days Our local scorekeeper decided that he hates AR's and refuses to jump on the bandwagon with a gun he hates. So...he has spent countless hours rigging a Mini-14 with a pistol grip and a 45-degree forend mounted Optima. Machined his own comp, too. I'll see if I can dig up pictures of that and his Totally Tactical 12 (tm)...Model 12 with a 10-shot tube, Cutts comp, Optima, custom high-cheekpiece stock... Alex

December 30, 2002, 11:57 PM	#10
Correia Moderator Emeritus Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: SLC Posts: 10,346	Wakal, I wish I could come. But even if I did I get the feeling that the fur hat would get really warm in Texas. Probably in better answer to the first poster, from what I've seen the experience level of the shooter matters less than the type of match being shot as far as equipment goes. If you are shooting in some of the USPSA matches you can see some pretty tricked out guns. I got to play with a really nice JP Enterprises Race AR a little while ago. It had a muzzle brake that looked like it came off of a 105 mm howitzer. It had 2 optical sights, a Leopold on the flat top, and an Optima on the float tube, but kind of on the side so that you would mount the gun on an angle for close and fast shots (I can't say I liked that much). Recoil was non existant, and it was supposed to be a 1/4 MOA rifle. Now if you are shooting in the WC3gun then that wouldn't be allowed as they have equipment rules that try to keep the guns more realistic. Most common guns in our local matches are ARs followed by AKs. The AKs really aren't at that much of a disadvantage as our longest shots at our local range don't go much past 200 yards, 300 if you really move stuff around. Some of us use FALs or M1a. There will also be a scattering of things like the SKS. We have folks show up with all manner of rifles for their first match. A really good feeling is to step up to the line with your $600 FAL built out of spare parts and beat the guy with the JP. It is the man not the machine that wins. I have a Cav Arms AR, but I have not played with it much yet. So I don't have a real strong opinion on it one way or the other yet. I don't think light weight is that much of an advantage. Having a bit more weight out front will steady you for the long shots, but you may not swing as fast on the CQB style stages. Depends on what you are more comfortable with. As for shotguns you will be able to hang in there just fine with your Winchester. It is a fine pump. Pumps are a bit slower. I'm a pumpgunner myself, but I will be the first to admit that if you take 2 shotgunners of equal skill, and put them on a speed stage, one with a pump, one with an auto the auto will usually win. At the higher levels you will see almost nobody run with a pump unless they are very seriously minded (like Andrew Wyatt was talking about) and then they will use their duty or home defense gun. I usually beat most everybody at our local matches in the shotgun stages, and that is with my pump, but I have practice a ton with it. When I go to bigger matches and run my pump I will still finish well, but anybody with equal skill but an auto will take me. Your Glock 19 is a fine gun. As long as it fits you and you practice with it you will be fine. If Glocks are your thing you may want to take a look at some of their Practical models. I'm a 1911 kind of guys but some of my best buddies swear by their Glocks. And pistol is my weakest weapon in 3 gun, so I get beat by those damn Glockers enough that I can't make fun of their guns.

December 31, 2002, 02:36 AM	#11
Andrew Wyatt Member Join Date: December 25, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, California Posts: 3,546	Correia speaketh the truth. It truly is the indian, not the arrow.