US Army looking for new pistol?

[DRZinn]

Since it is an international standard, and ammo is common to most places in the world.

Yeah, because we have so many problems manufacturing enough of our own ammo....

Never know when we might need to take some ammo from the body of a British soldier in the middle of a firefight....

[Bart Noir]

Beretta Model 92 series is indeed based on the barrel locking design of the Walther P-38. I've not compared the trigger and safety parts to see how much original design was done by the Beretta crowd.

Bart Noir

[WT]

AMERICAN HANDGUNNER magazine (January 2006, p. 113) is reporting that bids are out for 645,000 .45 caliber handguns to replace the Beretta M9. It is called the Joint Combat Pistol System. Maybe somebody can find the RFP on the web?

Regarding the 230 gr FMJ ....... Chuck Taylor said,
"I've used if on five different occasions, finding it to be entirely satisfactory as long as I did my job as a marksman and put the bullet(s) where they belonged. In each case, the adversary was immediately neutralized, and in only one case did the bullet ever exit. It was fully spend, however, and was found lying on the floor behind my assailant.

"Stopping power? In all five instances, the target began to collapse with the first hit, falling so quickly that a second shot wasn't even possible. HOW MUCH BETTER DOES IT GET?"

[ghost squire]

http://www.fbo.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM/...17/listing.html

Solicitation number : H92222-05-R-0017
Title : 10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System

General Information

Document Type: Presolicitation Notice
Solicitation Number: H92222-05-R-0017
Posted Date: Aug 26, 2005
Original Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Current Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Original Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Current Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Classification Code: 10 -- Weapons
Naics Code: 332994 -- Small Arms Manufacturing

Contracting Office AddressOther Defense Agencies, U.S. Special Operations Command, Headquarters Procurement Division, 7701 Tampa Point Blvd, MacDill AFB, FL, 33621-5323

Description

The USSOCOM intends to issue a solicitation to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement.
The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation.
Two configurations of the pistol will be required.
One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety.
The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning Kit; and Operator's Manual.
The contract type will be an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) issuing Firm-Fixed Price (FFP) delivery orders. The contract period of performance shall be Five (5)years with an option to extend for an additional Five (5) years.
The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration; 649,000 Holsters; 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines; 192,099 High Capacity Magazines; 667,000 Magazine Holders; 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits; Provisioning Item Order, Technical Data Package and associated Data.
Transportation shall be F.O.B. Destination.
The solicitation will require, free of charge to the government, delivery of 24 each product samples along with a concise written proposal all due on the closing date stated in the solicitation. The 24-each product sample from the successful offeror may be accepted as the Minimum Quantity. Any subsequent delivery orders for JCP's will order between 50 each and 200,000 each with a maximum monthly delivery rate of 5,000 each.
Any subsequent orders for the ancillary items will require delivery to commence within 60 days after receipt of order. The product samples and written proposal will be evaluated on a best value basis and the Government will reserve the right to award to other than the lowest priced offeror and other than the highest technically rated offeror.
Product samples from unsuccessful offerors will be returned to the offerors upon request and at the offeror's expense. The Government cannot guarantee the condition of the product samples after testing.
All responsible sources may submit a proposal, which shall be considered by the agency.
The Government intend to issue a draft solicitation. Notifications, Solicitation, and other communication will be posted via FEDBIZOPS.
Questions may be emailed to Contract Specialist, Mr. Pfender at john.pfender@navy.mil.

Well that link doesn't appear to work anymore but anyone can clearly see I didn't fabricate this...

Oh and BTW apparently quite a few of those M9s we ordered are going to the Caribbean and Columbia, to those countries troops, not ours.

[wqbang]

http://www.fbo.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM/S...tachments.html

[Val USP]

Originally Posted by Here2Learn

I'm not a military guy but if I was in charge rifles would fire .308 and pistols .45 ACP.

Then we could find out which platform was the best rather thasn screwing around with caliber changes.


Then again I am not an expert in this stuff.

How about .50 or .500 spl for handguns and .44magnum or even bigger

Originally Posted by DocZinn

Yeah, because we have so many problems manufacturing enough of our own ammo....

Never know when we might need to take some ammo from the body of a British soldier in the middle of a firefight....

That is however the mode of thinking our leaders used when picking 9mm.

[ghost squire]

Yes, when being in NATO was actually important, as we would have to fight side by side with our allies in a war that we stood a good chance of losing in.

[AFhack]

[QUOTE=ghost squire]http://www.fbo.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM/...17/listing.html

Solicitation number : H92222-05-R-0017
Title : 10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System

General Information

Document Type: Presolicitation Notice
Solicitation Number: H92222-05-R-0017
Posted Date: Aug 26, 2005
Original Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Current Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Original Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Current Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Classification Code: 10 -- Weapons
Naics Code: 332994 -- Small Arms Manufacturing

Contracting Office AddressOther Defense Agencies, U.S. Special Operations Command, Headquarters Procurement Division, 7701 Tampa Point Blvd, MacDill AFB, FL, 33621-5323

Description

The USSOCOM intends to issue a solicitation to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement.
The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation.
Two configurations of the pistol will be required.
One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety.
The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit .... [bunch snipped] QUOTE]


Thanks for the post... brings up a few questions though. Is it really 45 ACP only, or is 45 GAP a possibility?

Seems to me that a gun like the Ruger 45, the Glock 45 ACP, or perhaps a Springer XD derivative really fits the bill. Not too many 1911A1 clones out there than can do away with the external safety(s) with easy commonality between parts.

[TimboKhan]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, and I most likely am, but wasn't the Ruger P89 designed to be entered into the competition that the Beretta eventually won, only to be completed too late to be entered?

[Rob96]

Originally Posted by TimboKhan

Someone correct me if I am wrong, and I most likely am, but wasn't the Ruger P89 designed to be entered into the competition that the Beretta eventually won, only to be completed too late to be entered?

You are somewhat correct. It was the P85 that Ruger made and entered in the pistol trials. As this was Rugers first center fire semi auto, there were some problems with it, and they lost. Now that they have been making them for some time, I have no doubt they would pass the requirements.

[Jeff22]

It'll be interesting to see if the new Smith & Wesson military & police auto pistol gets any consideration in any future testing.

[PaladinX13]

Originally Posted by WT

Regarding the 230 gr FMJ ....... Chuck Taylor said,
"I've used if on five different occasions, finding it to be entirely satisfactory as long as I did my job as a marksman and put the bullet(s) where they belonged."

That's a pretty big qualification... is there much doubt that other rounds would do well with proper placement?

[ghost squire]

Thanks for the post... brings up a few questions though. Is it really 45 ACP only, or is 45 GAP a possibility?

Seems to me that a gun like the Ruger 45, the Glock 45 ACP, or perhaps a Springer XD derivative really fits the bill. Not too many 1911A1 clones out there than can do away with the external safety(s) with easy commonality between parts.

To be honest it looks like the military is set on .45 ACP, for whatever reason. Maybe they have a surplus of ammunition, or their factory is set up for making the ammo, maybe its just nostalgia!

The military is giving manufacturers of handguns plenty of time to make the modifications necessary make their product competitive. I would also include SIG on that list...

I also think it would be foolish for a manufacturer to enter a 1911 of any kind into the running. Considering in the last tests when it was used as a control, it came dead last in the trials conducted by the USAF, and second worst in the Army trials.

My bets on either Ruger or SIG, after that one of the polymer framed clonegunz.

[KriegHund]

"I've used if on five different occasions, finding it to be entirely satisfactory as long as I did my job as a marksman and put the bullet(s) where they belonged."

If thats the case than a .22 wouldve done the job...

I think its a bad idea to switch to the .45 ACP with the wider introduction on body armor in todays militarys.

Terrorists dont use body amror, however.

[Grunt]

Personally, I'd keep an eye on the new HK45 or the S&W SW99 as the two top candidates for a replacement for the M9. Personally, I'd rather see the new HK get the contract since I own a SW99 and am not all that impressed with it and the new HK45 does fit all the requirements for the new pistol trials. Now I know there are a lot of 1911 and Glock fans out there but being a combat arms instructor these days, I'm going to hope these weapons will NOT be considered for general issue. I see plenty of catagorey C shooters that will shoot once very 3 years then never touch a weapon again with figers on triggers, muzzles sweeping others and pointing uprange. I would NOT want to see these people armed with a single action 1911 or a Glock where the only manual safety is under their trigger finger with their finger on that trigger as the weapon points in the wrong place! No, something like the LEM or Sig's DAK trigger (I forget what S&W calls their pre-cocked DAO arrangement) wold be a better idea. You still get a light trigger pull for the first shot to assist in better shooting for folks not familiar with a DA pull and a short trigger reset afterwards yet still enough takeup on that first shot to make it easier for the shooter to know they are going to fire the weapon. Of course, .45 ACP would be the way to go since it is still a very common round even in US military inventories and has better performance than 9mm when FMJ is the ammo of the day.

[matthew.g.george]

I think it was 5000 p95's in 9mm the U.S. army armored corps ordered, If I remember right... Right now, the Iraqi security guys are getting glocks...

[Rob96]

Originally Posted by matthew.g.george

I think it was 5000 p95's in 9mm the U.S. army armored corps ordered, If I remember right... Right now, the Iraqi security guys are getting glocks...

The P95's are going to one of the Iraqi forces.

[TimboKhan]

I wonder if this has anything at all to do with S&W coming out with that new M&P auto?

[Geno]

Browning got it right with the "Model of 1911 U.S. Army"! I'm looking at my Colt WWI reproduction right now.

I just read a GREAT article about 1911s. Just for fun, check out the most recent Guns & Ammo, "The Complete Book of the Model 1911", pages 118-123.

They put these 1911s through some tests that I would have thought could destroy ANY pistol! Parking a pickup truck on it, soaking it and firing it, firing under water...I mean some serious abuse...and the article's title:

"ABUSING 1911s FOR FUN".

I'm convinced. I like old time tradition. Check out the article...it's a great read.

Edited to add:

While I am convinced Colt would be the way to go, I think the only company presently standing ready and FULLY capable of fulfilling this size contract would be Kimber. Hmmm, yeah, I could see 600,000+ Warriors out there! Here is where Kimber's tightness is a benefit...what can not enter into the slide area can not congest it. I'd give a nod toward Kimber's Warrior.

Doc2005

[ghost squire]

Which has tighter tolerances, Kimber Custom or Springfield Armory Professional?

PS the talcum powder sand of Southwest Asia gets in everything, period.

I'm confused as to why 1911s did so poorly in the JSAP trials...

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally Posted by ghost squire

Which has tighter tolerances, Kimber Custom or Springfield Armory Professional?

PS the talcum powder sand of Southwest Asia gets in everything, period.

I'm confused as to why 1911s did so poorly in the JSAP trials...

They actually didn't do badly -- and the guns in question were clapped-our arms room junkers. We hadn't bought new .45s in any quantity since 1945.

New M1911s against anyone else's new pistol would make an interesting horse race.

[KriegHund]

Thing that bugs me about the classic 1911's is that they hold 7 rounds (Pluso ne in the chamber) so 8 rounds.

You can get bloody revolvers with 8 rounds....

Im also annoyed that its got the external hammer and is supposed to be carried wit the hammer locked back.

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally Posted by KriegHund

Thing that bugs me about the classic 1911's is that they hold 7 rounds (Pluso ne in the chamber) so 8 rounds.

You can get bloody revolvers with 8 rounds....

But you can't reload them as fast.

Originally Posted by KriegHund

Im also annoyed that its got the external hammer and is supposed to be carried wit the hammer locked back.

Why is that a problem? The Ruger Standard Model .22 Automatic is designed to be carried with the hammer back -- as is the Buckmark and a host of other automatics.

[Blacklabman]

Originally Posted by KriegHund

Thing that bugs me about the classic 1911's is that they hold 7 rounds (Pluso ne in the chamber) so 8 rounds.
---------So the troops should spray and pray? The capacity of a magazine does not mean jack, if the caliber being used has a tough time putting down, the people being shot at. 3 rounds(.45) vs 10(9mm) rounds fired. I'll take the 3 every time. 8 round magaizines, are what I use in my 1911's. The Sig P220 also uses 8 rounds magazines. Many people put their faith in the P220, day in and day out. With only 8 rounds, it has managed to save more than a few of them.------------

You can get bloody revolvers with 8 rounds....
---------True. However the people I have seen hit with .45ACP have gone down hard within two to three shots. The same CANNOT be said for the 9mm. This was in Real Life. Not what I have read in a magazine, or on the computer. -------

Im also annoyed that its got the external hammer and is supposed to be carried wit the hammer locked back.

-----------Cond 1. It is one of the safest, reliable, most accurate pistols in the world. That is one of the many thing's, that make's the 1911 so great. You do not like the 1911. That's fine, some do not. But I have a question. How can you argue a postition, without any experience with the weapon?--------
Not sure why, my reply looks as such. Oh well. no big deal.

Grunt,
I think the .45 H&K would make a Fine service weapon. Time will tell.