Building The Ultimate HD 12GA

enfield303 · February 21, 2005, 07:57 PM

Hey All,
I am new to this site. It was quite a nice surprise to find such a large group of like minded firearms enthusiasts. I have a project in mind. I want to build the Meanest, Nastiest, Most evil-looking 12 bore ever. I was hoping some of you could give me some ideas. I plan on starting with an 870 and going from there. The only problem is I have VERY little gunsmithing experiance, so any mods will have to be pretty easy to install. Any and all Ideas are welcome. As I progress I will be posting pictures.

walking arsenal · February 21, 2005, 08:10 PM

well you can build one of two things, you can build the baddest meanest or the most effective. the two dont make good bed fellows. Ill let the others set up on that.

i built one on a mossberg 500 action, it has the heat shield and an 18 inch barrel with two side saddles one on the receiver and one on the butt stock.

the butt stock one carries my specialty loads.

it had a red dot sight but i took it off do to problems seeing the dot in bright light.

the best tip is that everyone likes somthing different and youll have to play to find out what you like best, dont let others talk you into things decide for yourself. Buy ammo use up repeat.

Tomac · February 21, 2005, 08:22 PM

Is this mean enough for you?:

Saiga-12 semi-auto shotgun, folding stock, PK-AS sight, tactical light, sling & 8rd mag (5rd mag shown).
Tomac

enfield303 · February 21, 2005, 08:30 PM

Travie Likey!!!!

Preacherman · February 21, 2005, 08:35 PM

It's been done... see here, and be prepared to laugh out loud!

**Lee Lapin** · February 21, 2005, 08:38 PM

Welcome aboard, Enfield303.

I suggest not worrying very much about how your HD gun _looks_, but more so about how well it works- and most importantly, how good you are at using it. The 870 is a great platform to build on, its modular nature makes it very adaptable. Several things are usually agreed upon as useful on a dedicated HD gun:

1) Start out with a factory 18- 21" barrel if you have one or can find one easily. If not you can have a barrel cut down to a handy length (no shorter than 18" tho). CYL is OK for an in-house gun, chokes (IMP CYL or MOD) are handy for outside.

2) Make sure the stock fits you well and the fore-end is easy for you to reach/manipulate. Stocks can be cut to fit, recoil pads added, etc. Various lengths of fore-end are available and diameters can be changed to be comfortable for you.

3) Sights are an individual choice, for a 'real' HD gun a bead will do fine but other choices are available. Shooting a shotgun with 'just' a bead is a good skill to have, it's a basic like learning to drive a stick shift.

4) Magazine extensions are also a matter of choice- not really necessary in some opinions but a good one properly installed will not detract from reliability

5) Sidesaddles or other on-board ammo storage is also a matter of choice

6) Ditto on-board lights, lasers, optics, slings, trick stocks etc.

Best advice is to start simple and add accessories as you learn the gun. Spend money on ammo early along, spend lots of money on ammo, and burn it up, then buy more. Trigger time by the owner makes for a mean HD gun, not bolt-on doodads.

lpl/nc

sm · February 21, 2005, 09:13 PM

enfeild303 , Welcome to THR.

Quote:

There is no ultimate weapon, only ultimate shooters.

-Correia

sm · February 21, 2005, 09:21 PM

Preacherman -

Umm ...err... Thank you, (I think) for posting that link ( and dredging) that thread ( memory) up. Put it this way - my language and thoughts on clicking on that link ...Forgive me Father I have sinned and pass the Tylenol

enfield303 · February 21, 2005, 09:42 PM

Can't....Get.....Photos.....to......Load......

444 · February 21, 2005, 10:55 PM

To my mind (I have to add that to avoid another thread like that last one), a good HOME DEFENSE shotgun would be a Remington 870 with as short a barrel as possible and a Surefire dedicated foreend.
The Ultimate HOME DEFENISE shotgun, would be all of the above, and a butt stock cut down a few inches although a youth stock or a Hogue short stock will work also.
To my mind, anything else on a shotgun intended for HOME DEFENSE would be purely cosmetic.
Slings, extended magazine tubes, sidesaddles, exotic sights, etc. really play no role in a HOME DEFENSE shotgun.

The dedicated light is a requirement and not an option.

Gordon · February 21, 2005, 11:54 PM

444 KNOWS his stuff! This man has gone thru top quality training an shoots alot!
Although an 'ultimate ' shottie MAY be a semi auto, the best Practical home defense shottie is a Rem 870 ( moss 590 are ok) set up as 444 said.
Stocks indoors need to be short , somewhere around 12-13" works best for anyone 6'6" or under, in CQB outdoors they will also work well- this ain't bird shootin!. Barrels need to be 18.5-22" with shorter slightly better.A sidesaddle keeps a tube full handy, with an available choice of slugs! An extension tube mag doesn't hurt, but MUST be properly clamped. I recommend a Remington factory rifle sighted barrel, with Rem choke, if you don't want to get a gunsmithed ghost ring & Tritium blade set up on a Vang comped barrel ($$$) . A Vang dome safety really helps! Surefire dedicated foreend is the only $200+ way to fly, listen to me, 444 and Lewis Awerbuck : a light is neccessary! and you have to have it move with the pump handle !. I like the GG&G single point adapter sling system, but a good sturdy conventional sling will do-avoid shell slings! You NEVER need nor WANT anything but 2 3/4" shells and even then the hot set up are 'managed recoil' slug and buck shot. Even indoors single 0 buck or bigger is preferrable , remember to have an identified slug or two handy!
Besides carrying an Ithaca model 37 in Vietnam for a year(60s), I was trained with a shottie in Federal service and latter with Robbie Barkmann at Gunsight, shot in Soldier of Fortune matches in LV(70-80s), and trained under John Satterwaite(late 80s) and now Lewis Awerbuck ,who is the ABSOLUTE MASTERTRAINERof the defensive shottie, and believe me such training is by FAR the most important addition to ANY shottie you can have!

CRridermike · February 22, 2005, 12:52 AM

i like mine how it is for HD

-speedfeed IV stock set
-mossberg 18.5" replacement barrel
-tru-glo front sight
-butt cuff ammo holder

that is what i have on it all the time, i have a side saddle which was a waste of money. i want a mag extention though.

**Dave McCracken** · February 22, 2005, 09:44 AM

First, build the ultimate shotgunner.

Get an 870 or other good pumpgun. Get the stock fitted and the trigger clean and 4 lbs or less.

Now, buy as much ammo as you can afford and shoot it up. Do so until the weapon feels like a body part, not a tool.

Shoot clays, steel plates, landfill rats, quarry pigeons, and so on until almost everything you shoot at is destroyed PDQ.

BA/UU/R.

At that point, you're a shotgunner. You can pick up most any shotgun and be deadly with it. And, youve got INFORMED opinions on what addons and mods will help you complete your mission and what are just bling.

Anyone can have an opinion, but INFORMED opinions based on real world experience are the only ones worth considering.

" A checkbook is a poor substitute for expertise"....

enfield303 · February 22, 2005, 11:29 AM

I grew up on a farm in north-central Iowa, and discovered a love of putting holes in things at an early age(12). I now live in a college town in the same state. On the farm, burning powder was not much of a problem, now, I have a hell of a time getting a chance to shoot very much. I work 65+ hours a week in a sales job(yes, I am a car jockey). The problem I have been running into is that our local range is not open when I have the oppertunity to go. I really miss being able to load up my ruck with ammo, strap my Mossberg to my back, jump on the four-wheeler, and massacre cans, bottles, ground squirrles,etc. Sorry, just a random rant.

sm · February 22, 2005, 12:00 PM

Dear Dave , Correia and Denny,

I have been shooting shotguns for mumbley something years. Earth was flat when I started. I have run 25K rds a year in one gauge of one shotgun ga. alone for years. I used to compete in Skeet , and some other "bird games" ( some clay, some had "other" targets). I have shot 16 practice rds in one day. Shot up a whole case of shotgun ammo in one day. Gone through 200 slugs in a day.

I have been shooting a bone stock shotgun, with minor exceptions/ situations. All I own are bone stock SGs with 28" barrels. Can I please graduate to modifiying my shot gun?

I only ask for one modification. I want a shorter bbl length , like 20" , a 18.5" will do if the 20" can't be found.

I understand if a denial is posted. I was just wondering is all.

Regards,

Steve

jason10mm · February 22, 2005, 03:47 PM

I'm building my version. It is an 870 express (18" barrel with factory magazine tube extension and bead sight). I got the AR-15 stock adapter from Mesa Tactical (cheapest all metal adapter I could find, accepts QD sling swivels, and will shortly have side saddle attachments should I chose to use them) and have a Vltor collapsible stock on it. A surefire forend is coming whenever they get their production back up. Since the stock is now too high, I put a dot optic on it.

I used to use a 590 for HD, but now that I have a lady over most nights, I needed something shorter for her to use (and yes, she does shoot it!). Youth stocks didn't work well, so I decided on the collapsible stock. Kind of a pain to have to use the optic, but the pistol grip/stock/optic set-up is VERY similar to my AR set-up, so a lot of training crosses over. I spend a lot more time behind the carbine than a shotgun, so that's an important consideration.

Personally, a side by side coach gun is about all you need for HD, at least my wallet wishes that were the case :P

Correia · February 22, 2005, 03:47 PM

Steve, you are asking the wrong guy. I do all sorts of wacky crap to my guns.

Third_Rail · February 22, 2005, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Earth was flat when I started.

Glad you're the one that gave me instructions a while ago... should be putting them to use next week at the latest.

mjb · February 22, 2005, 04:22 PM

You might want to consider an Ithaca Police Special shotgun. It holds 7+1 and has "slam fire" capability. Winchester model 97 and 12 also have that capability. Slam fire means that you shoot the first time and then leave your finger on the trigger. When your finger is still on the trigger you just keep moving the slide. When the slide is moved forward the gun will fire. With low brass ammo is is pretty easy to control. It is a really fast way to empty a shotgun.

Duke of Lawnchair · February 22, 2005, 04:27 PM

I'd have to agree with some of our members here on this board but with one exception. Make mine a semiauto.

Heck, I wouldn't feel undergunned with a pump either as the Nova is sometimes relegated to house duty.

Nearly bonestock (factory accessories or anything that makes life simpler is allowable) with a < 21" barrel will work for me. Add in a load that has been known to pattern well in my very own shotgun(s) as well as practice and I'm good to go.

-Jim

sm · February 22, 2005, 11:54 PM

Quote:

I do all sorts of wacky crap to my guns.

-
Larry , don't I know it. BTW - how is that project coming around?

I tell from your post you have been busy changing diapers as well.

My letter was me trying to be facitious...could you tell?

Quote:

Glad you're the one that gave me instructions a while ago...

Rut Roh ...Quick, consult Dave, Corriea, Denny...anybody - do a search - something - can't have you out there shooting according to MY instructions.

I was kidding about yelling "Duck" when you call for a bird...

Caliburn · February 23, 2005, 12:58 AM

Well, for the meanest, nastiest, most bad-a$$iest shottie ever, I'd mount a modified acetylene torch under the mag for those times when a bayonet doesn't quite have the attitude you need. Or a rottweiler, your choice. Or fix a skull on the muzzle of a double barrell that shoots through the eyes.

Stupid question though... what is a speedfeed stock? The mag tube is under the barrell so I can't see how anything in/on the buttstock would be able to feed it.

SUE ROVR · February 23, 2005, 02:54 AM

I have a mossy 500a now with a pistol grip (thanks dave!) and soon to be an 18.5in barrell.

It is about an inch over the legal minimum and with 5 3in 00 remington magnum premium shells I bet it will kick like a mule but I would rather be holding it than on the recieving end.

It looks mean. I am still debating on the front stock.

Sits in the corner of the closet. If 5 won't do it I will have to go to 45 in the glock.

EDIT: this is mean looking

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=29141355

**Dave McCracken** · February 23, 2005, 06:13 AM

sm, permission granted.

Folks, my $0.02....

Addons and mods are not verboten per se in The Temple of The Shotgun Gods. Only those meant to substitute for practice.

Again, get good first, then modify.

Correia · February 23, 2005, 04:05 PM

sm, one project of many, all of which have piled up on me, and I hope someday to actually get a few of them done. Sadly the ones that make money have to come first, and the ones that cost money have to come last.

February 21, 2005, 07:57 PM	#1
enfield303 Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: In the shadows.... Posts: 377	Building The Ultimate HD 12GA Hey All, I am new to this site. It was quite a nice surprise to find such a large group of like minded firearms enthusiasts. I have a project in mind. I want to build the Meanest, Nastiest, Most evil-looking 12 bore ever. I was hoping some of you could give me some ideas. I plan on starting with an 870 and going from there. The only problem is I have VERY little gunsmithing experiance, so any mods will have to be pretty easy to install. Any and all Ideas are welcome. As I progress I will be posting pictures.

February 21, 2005, 08:35 PM	#5
Preacherman Moderator Emeritus Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: Louisiana, USA Posts: 13,323	It's been done... see here, and be prepared to laugh out loud! __________________ Proud THR plank-owner Let's put the fun back in dysfunctional! Please visit my blog: http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/

February 21, 2005, 09:21 PM	#8
sm Member Join Date: December 23, 2002 Posts: 26,516	Preacherman - Umm ...err... Thank you, (I think) for posting that link ( and dredging) that thread ( memory) up. Put it this way - my language and thoughts on clicking on that link ...Forgive me Father I have sinned and pass the Tylenol __________________ Use Enough Gun TFL illuminaughty

February 21, 2005, 10:55 PM	#10
444 Member Join Date: December 26, 2002 Location: Pahrump Nevada Posts: 7,735	To my mind (I have to add that to avoid another thread like that last one), a good HOME DEFENSE shotgun would be a Remington 870 with as short a barrel as possible and a Surefire dedicated foreend. The Ultimate HOME DEFENISE shotgun, would be all of the above, and a butt stock cut down a few inches although a youth stock or a Hogue short stock will work also. To my mind, anything else on a shotgun intended for HOME DEFENSE would be purely cosmetic. Slings, extended magazine tubes, sidesaddles, exotic sights, etc. really play no role in a HOME DEFENSE shotgun. The dedicated light is a requirement and not an option. __________________ "This is a different kind of army. If you look at history you'll see men fight for pay, or women, or some other kind of loot. They fight for land, or because a king makes them, or just because they like killing. But we're here for something new. I don't... this hasn't happened much in the history of the world. We're an army going out to set other men free."

February 22, 2005, 09:44 AM	#13
Dave McCracken Moderator Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: MD. Posts: 11,866	First, build the ultimate shotgunner. Get an 870 or other good pumpgun. Get the stock fitted and the trigger clean and 4 lbs or less. Now, buy as much ammo as you can afford and shoot it up. Do so until the weapon feels like a body part, not a tool. Shoot clays, steel plates, landfill rats, quarry pigeons, and so on until almost everything you shoot at is destroyed PDQ. BA/UU/R. At that point, you're a shotgunner. You can pick up most any shotgun and be deadly with it. And, youve got INFORMED opinions on what addons and mods will help you complete your mission and what are just bling. Anyone can have an opinion, but INFORMED opinions based on real world experience are the only ones worth considering. " A checkbook is a poor substitute for expertise".... __________________ BA/UU/R....

February 21, 2005, 08:10 PM	#2
walking arsenal Member Join Date: August 6, 2003 Location: Bemidji, MN Posts: 1,684	well you can build one of two things, you can build the baddest meanest or the most effective. the two dont make good bed fellows. Ill let the others set up on that. i built one on a mossberg 500 action, it has the heat shield and an 18 inch barrel with two side saddles one on the receiver and one on the butt stock. the butt stock one carries my specialty loads. it had a red dot sight but i took it off do to problems seeing the dot in bright light. the best tip is that everyone likes somthing different and youll have to play to find out what you like best, dont let others talk you into things decide for yourself. Buy ammo use up repeat.

February 21, 2005, 08:22 PM	#3
Tomac Member Join Date: October 13, 2003 Location: Caldwell, Idaho Posts: 528	Is this mean enough for you?: Saiga-12 semi-auto shotgun, folding stock, PK-AS sight, tactical light, sling & 8rd mag (5rd mag shown). Tomac

February 21, 2005, 08:30 PM	#4
enfield303 Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: In the shadows.... Posts: 377	Travie Likey!!!!

February 21, 2005, 08:38 PM	#6
Lee Lapin Moderator Join Date: March 26, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 8,704	Welcome aboard, Enfield303. I suggest not worrying very much about how your HD gun _looks_, but more so about how well it works- and most importantly, how good you are at using it. The 870 is a great platform to build on, its modular nature makes it very adaptable. Several things are usually agreed upon as useful on a dedicated HD gun: 1) Start out with a factory 18- 21" barrel if you have one or can find one easily. If not you can have a barrel cut down to a handy length (no shorter than 18" tho). CYL is OK for an in-house gun, chokes (IMP CYL or MOD) are handy for outside. 2) Make sure the stock fits you well and the fore-end is easy for you to reach/manipulate. Stocks can be cut to fit, recoil pads added, etc. Various lengths of fore-end are available and diameters can be changed to be comfortable for you. 3) Sights are an individual choice, for a 'real' HD gun a bead will do fine but other choices are available. Shooting a shotgun with 'just' a bead is a good skill to have, it's a basic like learning to drive a stick shift. 4) Magazine extensions are also a matter of choice- not really necessary in some opinions but a good one properly installed will not detract from reliability 5) Sidesaddles or other on-board ammo storage is also a matter of choice 6) Ditto on-board lights, lasers, optics, slings, trick stocks etc. Best advice is to start simple and add accessories as you learn the gun. Spend money on ammo early along, spend lots of money on ammo, and burn it up, then buy more. Trigger time by the owner makes for a mean HD gun, not bolt-on doodads. lpl/nc

February 21, 2005, 09:42 PM	#9
enfield303 Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: In the shadows.... Posts: 377	Can't....Get.....Photos.....to......Load......

February 21, 2005, 11:54 PM	#11
Gordon Member Join Date: December 26, 2002 Location: central Kali. Posts: 4,903	444 KNOWS his stuff! This man has gone thru top quality training an shoots alot! Although an 'ultimate ' shottie MAY be a semi auto, the best Practical home defense shottie is a Rem 870 ( moss 590 are ok) set up as 444 said. Stocks indoors need to be short , somewhere around 12-13" works best for anyone 6'6" or under, in CQB outdoors they will also work well- this ain't bird shootin!. Barrels need to be 18.5-22" with shorter slightly better.A sidesaddle keeps a tube full handy, with an available choice of slugs! An extension tube mag doesn't hurt, but MUST be properly clamped. I recommend a Remington factory rifle sighted barrel, with Rem choke, if you don't want to get a gunsmithed ghost ring & Tritium blade set up on a Vang comped barrel ($$$) . A Vang dome safety really helps! Surefire dedicated foreend is the only $200+ way to fly, listen to me, 444 and Lewis Awerbuck : a light is neccessary! and you have to have it move with the pump handle !. I like the GG&G single point adapter sling system, but a good sturdy conventional sling will do-avoid shell slings! You NEVER need nor WANT anything but 2 3/4" shells and even then the hot set up are 'managed recoil' slug and buck shot. Even indoors single 0 buck or bigger is preferrable , remember to have an identified slug or two handy! Besides carrying an Ithaca model 37 in Vietnam for a year(60s), I was trained with a shottie in Federal service and latter with Robbie Barkmann at Gunsight, shot in Soldier of Fortune matches in LV(70-80s), and trained under John Satterwaite(late 80s) and now Lewis Awerbuck ,who is the ABSOLUTE MASTERTRAINERof the defensive shottie, and believe me such training is by FAR the most important addition to ANY shottie you can have!

February 22, 2005, 11:29 AM	#14
enfield303 Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: In the shadows.... Posts: 377	I grew up on a farm in north-central Iowa, and discovered a love of putting holes in things at an early age(12). I now live in a college town in the same state. On the farm, burning powder was not much of a problem, now, I have a hell of a time getting a chance to shoot very much. I work 65+ hours a week in a sales job(yes, I am a car jockey). The problem I have been running into is that our local range is not open when I have the oppertunity to go. I really miss being able to load up my ruck with ammo, strap my Mossberg to my back, jump on the four-wheeler, and massacre cans, bottles, ground squirrles,etc. Sorry, just a random rant.

February 22, 2005, 12:00 PM	#15
sm Member Join Date: December 23, 2002 Posts: 26,516	Dear Dave , Correia and Denny, I have been shooting shotguns for mumbley something years. Earth was flat when I started. I have run 25K rds a year in one gauge of one shotgun ga. alone for years. I used to compete in Skeet , and some other "bird games" ( some clay, some had "other" targets). I have shot 16 practice rds in one day. Shot up a whole case of shotgun ammo in one day. Gone through 200 slugs in a day. I have been shooting a bone stock shotgun, with minor exceptions/ situations. All I own are bone stock SGs with 28" barrels. Can I please graduate to modifiying my shot gun? I only ask for one modification. I want a shorter bbl length , like 20" , a 18.5" will do if the 20" can't be found. I understand if a denial is posted. I was just wondering is all. Regards, Steve __________________ Use Enough Gun TFL illuminaughty

February 22, 2005, 03:47 PM	#16
jason10mm Member Join Date: August 5, 2003 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 432	I'm building my version. It is an 870 express (18" barrel with factory magazine tube extension and bead sight). I got the AR-15 stock adapter from Mesa Tactical (cheapest all metal adapter I could find, accepts QD sling swivels, and will shortly have side saddle attachments should I chose to use them) and have a Vltor collapsible stock on it. A surefire forend is coming whenever they get their production back up. Since the stock is now too high, I put a dot optic on it. I used to use a 590 for HD, but now that I have a lady over most nights, I needed something shorter for her to use (and yes, she does shoot it!). Youth stocks didn't work well, so I decided on the collapsible stock. Kind of a pain to have to use the optic, but the pistol grip/stock/optic set-up is VERY similar to my AR set-up, so a lot of training crosses over. I spend a lot more time behind the carbine than a shotgun, so that's an important consideration. Personally, a side by side coach gun is about all you need for HD, at least my wallet wishes that were the case :P

February 22, 2005, 03:47 PM	#17
Correia Moderator Emeritus Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: SLC Posts: 10,364	Steve, you are asking the wrong guy. I do all sorts of wacky crap to my guns.

February 22, 2005, 04:22 PM	#19
mjb Member Join Date: December 8, 2004 Location: Newport, Kentucky Posts: 288	You might want to consider an Ithaca Police Special shotgun. It holds 7+1 and has "slam fire" capability. Winchester model 97 and 12 also have that capability. Slam fire means that you shoot the first time and then leave your finger on the trigger. When your finger is still on the trigger you just keep moving the slide. When the slide is moved forward the gun will fire. With low brass ammo is is pretty easy to control. It is a really fast way to empty a shotgun.

February 22, 2005, 04:27 PM	#20
Duke of Lawnchair Member Join Date: January 8, 2003 Location: Kern County, CA Posts: 1,122	I'd have to agree with some of our members here on this board but with one exception. Make mine a semiauto. Heck, I wouldn't feel undergunned with a pump either as the Nova is sometimes relegated to house duty. Nearly bonestock (factory accessories or anything that makes life simpler is allowable) with a < 21" barrel will work for me. Add in a load that has been known to pattern well in my very own shotgun(s) as well as practice and I'm good to go. -Jim

February 23, 2005, 12:58 AM	#22
Caliburn Member Join Date: June 19, 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 142	Well, for the meanest, nastiest, most bad-a$$iest shottie ever, I'd mount a modified acetylene torch under the mag for those times when a bayonet doesn't quite have the attitude you need. Or a rottweiler, your choice. Or fix a skull on the muzzle of a double barrell that shoots through the eyes. Stupid question though... what is a speedfeed stock? The mag tube is under the barrell so I can't see how anything in/on the buttstock would be able to feed it. __________________ "What the hell are we supposed to use, man? Harsh language?"

February 23, 2005, 02:54 AM	#23
SUE ROVR Member Join Date: July 20, 2004 Posts: 172	I have a mossy 500a now with a pistol grip (thanks dave!) and soon to be an 18.5in barrell. It is about an inch over the legal minimum and with 5 3in 00 remington magnum premium shells I bet it will kick like a mule but I would rather be holding it than on the recieving end. It looks mean. I am still debating on the front stock. Sits in the corner of the closet. If 5 won't do it I will have to go to 45 in the glock. EDIT: this is mean looking http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=29141355 __________________ When the government comes to take my guns, then will get them--bullets first.

February 23, 2005, 06:13 AM	#24
Dave McCracken Moderator Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: MD. Posts: 11,866	sm, permission granted. Folks, my $0.02.... Addons and mods are not verboten per se in The Temple of The Shotgun Gods. Only those meant to substitute for practice. Again, get good first, then modify. __________________ BA/UU/R....

February 23, 2005, 04:05 PM	#25
Correia Moderator Emeritus Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: SLC Posts: 10,364	sm, one project of many, all of which have piled up on me, and I hope someday to actually get a few of them done. Sadly the ones that make money have to come first, and the ones that cost money have to come last.

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