Small Auto Comparison

[Bobo]

Am working on a comparison of auto handguns smaller than six inches in overall length, .32 ACP or larger.

Would be glad to hear of any suggestions to make it better. Constructive criticism is also welcome.

I would also like to do a comparison of revolvers with the same criteria (less than six inches in overall length, .32 ACP or larger). Any suggestions for makes and models would be appreciated.
To elicit more response should I also put this up on the revolver forum?

[priv8ter]

That's very cool. The 4X$ square is very helpful also.

I've never seen a Seecamp before, I didn't realize they were so small...

greg

[Bobo]

priv8tr,

Yes they are small but sometimes hard to come by. If you check out their site www.seecamp.com they have a long waiting period. They also only shoot certain makes of ammo, also mentioned on the site.

[albanian]

Is the Bersa small enough to include? If not, maybe when the smaller version comes out, it will be small enough.

From your list, I really like the looks of the Roarbaugh. If there was a chance of getting one for about $600, I would buy one. Almost $1000 is too expensive for a gun that has no track record and may or may not work. I have been burned too many times by the latest and greatest new pistol to spend that kind of jack on a new toy.

[George S.]

Too bad you didn't include pistols with lengths up to and including 6 inches. The entire Taurus Millenium Pro line could be included as they are 6" long and include .45ACP versions like the PT145 with a full 10+1 capacity.

The Kel-Tec is 5.6" long according to the chart and that only .4 shorter that the Taurus M-P's.

[wally]

What's with the loaded/unloaded weights. Pretty sure 5+1 of 40 S&W weights more than 2 oz.

--wally.

[Bobo]

albanian,
Thanks for the input.

I checked out the Bersa Thunder and it's 6.61" long

======================================================
George S.,
Thanks for the input.

Actually, I started the comparison with pistols six inches or less, there are quite a few that are exactly 6". Including the Taurus models as you mentioned, some S&W models, and possibly others.

The reason I didn't include them is four-fold:
One, I wanted to get everything on one page for ease of comparison;
Two, I had to cut of the list somewhere;
Three, I was interested in pistols that would carry comfortably 24/7 in a front or back pocket and be undetected. I know some people would be comfortable with a pistol 6" and even larger, but I personally wouldn't and I originally started the comparison for my own use.
Four, most men's pants back pockets are less than 6" deep. There are some that are a little more such as Dickies brand at 6¼". I didn't want the pistol to "peek" out.

[Bobo]

wally,
Good catch!

I believe I got some bad info.
It looks like the loaded weights for both Kahr pistols is light.
I'll check on it.

[P95Carry]

Looks good Bob - excellent. I was gonna mention R9 but see it is there. Good! We are often trying to do comparisons - ''side-by-sides'' - this is most useful.

[Keoni]

IMO, although not currently being manufactured, are Colt's Mustang and Pony .380's. I've owned both of these pistols. The Mustang has been sold, but I carry the Pony in a pocket holster occasionally. Both are under six inches in length and have been totally reliable with hollowpoint ammunition of various manufacturers.

[albanian]

That reminds me! There was a Colt 9mm that was smaller than the Kahr but was all metal. I think it was called the Pocket Light or something. Someone here would have more info on it. I know Colt got sued by Kahr for patent violations and lost. It is too bad because from the looks of it, it would have sold really well if it ever was offered in large numbers.

[Keoni]

is the name of that pistol. Pocket Lite refers to the aluminum frame Pony and Mustang pistols.

[George Hill]

Send that to Concealed Carry Magazine... That could use that.

[Bobo]

Thanks to all who have suggested other pistols such as the old Colts, Autaugas, etc.

The reason I didn't include these in the comparison is that they are not available new. I imagine that there are many old models that would fit the criteria, but could only be bought used. Also, it would be difficult to get the specs and photos needed.

If someone could provide the all the specs, used price range, and good photos of the side of these guns I would be happy to do a page of older pistols. By the way, the photos have to be a straight-on side (preferably left) view. If they are taken at an angle they can't be sized exactly in proportion. The Seacamp photos in my comparison are the best I could find, but they are at a very slight angle and tend to make the pistol look a little bit smaller than it really is.

[Felonious Monk]

VERY nice work, Bobo!

I agree that you MUST cut it off somewhere, and your criteria for a CCW-size is reasonable. Below 6" makes good sense.

I'd love to see some revo's built smaller than J-frames and larger than the little .22 poppers whose name escapes me for some reason right now...they make the Black Widow among others. NAA! That's it!
Someday...

[Bobo]

Felonious Monk,

I agree with you that revolvers less than 6" long and at least .32 ACP would be a nice size for concealed carry.

I think the "22 poppers" you are talking about are the North American Arms Mini's at this URL. They also make the Guardian autos shown in my comparison.
http://www.naaminis.com/index02.html

[albanian]

Good point about the smaller than J-frame snubbies! I have been wondering for a while why they don't make one. Back in the old days, the sub-J-frame revolvers varied in size from tiny to just smaller than a J-frame. I had a couple of .32 cal revolvers that were smaller than a J-frame. With modern metals, you would think they could make a 9mm snubby that would be smaller than a modern one. What about a 3-4 shot snubby? How about 4 shots of .45acp in a package as small or smaller than a J-frame?

Anyway, I see why you don't inclued the guns that are no longer made. The Colt for example is now a collectors piece more than a shooter. The last one I saw for sale was about $700 used. For that kind of money, you can almost get a new Rorbaugh. You could buy the Kahr PM9 and have money left over for holsters, ammo and range time.

[Kevinch]

Nice work - a neat project, to be sure!

Might I ask - are you trying to decide on a pistol, or simply doing this as a reference?

[Bobo]

Kevinch,
Thanks.

I'm trying to decide on a pistol. I have it down to three; Kel-Tec P-3AT, Guardian 32 NAA, Guardian .380 (probably in that order). I haven't handled or shot any of them yet, so my mind may change drastically when I actually see, carry, and shoot them.

In the process this has also turned out to be a pretty good reference. Just thought I'd share it. And with some suggestions from this forum maybe improve it a bit.

[logical]

BOBO-

The Rohrbaugh has an alloy, not a polymer frame.

Albainian-

I doubt you'll find an R9 for $600, they are generally $850-950 new with a few month wait or about the same price used. I think if you are really interested in one you'll look into it and find they've been out long enough to get beyond calling them unproven guns that "may or may not work". It is hardly the only or most expensive gun available these days so I don't think price is really worth discussing. What it offers in size, weight, power and quality either is or isn't worth it to a given customer...no right or wrong.

[Kevinch]

Bobo,

since you said you are trying to decide on a gun - I'll give my unsolicited $0.02 (which might not be worth that much!)

Only 4 of the pistols listed are of what most would consider an "adequate" defense round (& I'm choosing my words carefully - no intent to start a caliber war here! )

I would assume you're looking for a highly concealable pistol for discrete carry.

I currently have a KelTec P-32. I reach for it only - and always - when I can't carry something bigger, or as a backup. However, I very well might go with a P-3AT if I do it over again. To carry .380 instead of .32, in a package that is 0.1" longer & 0.6oz heavier would be a worthwhile compromise, IMO.

There are other good choices, but there are issues: good luck finding a Seecamp, and then for MSRP. A Rorhbaugh might be a choice, if you have that kind of jingle. For my taste, the Kahr guns are getting large for pocket carry in all but the most baggy pants or a coat pocket. The NAA Guardian might be another choice, although (in .380) it does weigh twice as much.

I think the format of your comparison table is good. If you do decide to do one on revolvers, be sure to post it!

[Walt Sherrill]

I had a 4" S&W 9mm revolver (547) and it was a fine gun. It was well made and heavy. I can't imagine shooting a very small snub, light-weight, using a 9mm round. The 9mm round is not, contrary to popular opinion, an anemic round.

[rhedley]

Bobo

.. Please Keep this chart going, GOOD job!!

[Bobo]

This is the latest chart.

Made a few corrections and changes suggested by forum members.

[P95Carry]

Many thx for the good work

Oh and Bob - a favor please. I would very much like to post that image on my Rohrbaugh R9 FAQ site - it makes for a most useful reference. Would you object?