CZ-52 Defensive Capabilities?

[Kacerdias]

I have a friend who is very very short on cash and he lives in a pretty bad neighborhood. He has 1 child and a girlfriend which he is caring for. I found a place where I can pick up a working CZ-52 in 7.65x25mm for about $100 which is just doable. I plan on replacing the firing pin and some internal parts with higher-quality steel and torture-testing it for reliability if the decision is made to go with this gun.

My question is this: What do you think of the defensive capabilities of the 7.62x25mm round? It appears to be fairly potent. Can anyone recommend good defensive ammunition in this caliber?

[HighVelocity]

I'm curious why a handgun over a shotgun? Is he going to be carrying it or using it solely for home defense? A good shotgun can be had for close to $100 as well and ammo is cheap and easy to get.

[Mark13]

I don't think it would be ideal. But it would work. The problem is that defensive ammo will be much more expensive than the FMJ imported ammo. He might be better off with a 4" 6-shot .38. It's a defensive bargain. Or a 12 gauge pump might be even cheaper for home protection.

[Kacerdias]

I think he plans to go the CHL route eventually and seems to prefer autoloaders over revolvers. I was thinking about recommending a Makarov, but I'm unsure about the 9x18mm round.

A shotgun might work pretty well, but I'll have to look around for a decent and cheap one. Problem would be that he can't carry it around if he decides to pack.

[dasmi]

It's been said before, but if it was me, I'd try hard to get him into a small frame revolver in .357 magnum or .38 special +p.
Inexpensive and potent ammo, inexpensive and reliable weapon.
Pratice with .38 specials, load up for defense with .357 mag or .38 special +p hollow points.

[tbeb]

The 7.62 X 25mm is all about penetration. I believe it was used in countries where penetrating heavy winter clothing was necessary.

makarov.com sells an 85 gr. JHP and an 85 gr. FMJ. I like JHP's but the 7.62 X 25mm is really fast and I don't know if the JHP would penetrate deep enough if it expands. Winchester U.S.A. ("U.S.A." is their no frills brand) has an
85 gr. FMJ that should be good quality ammunition. if you go with the CZ52 then fire enough rounds to make sure it is dang near 100% reliable. I'd go with the FMJ because it should feed better and it will penetrate the most.

(FWIW, and you probably know this, a 20 or 16 or 12 gauge shotgun is a better manstopper than any handgun round.)

[Kacerdias]

Hmmm... So where would 7.62x25mm reside from a ballistics standpoint? Between .380 and 9mm? 85 grain is a much ligher bullet than the 115gr 9mm round. But the Tokarev round is faster right? Hmmm.

[Mark13]

I think my sellier & bellot 85gr fmj was tested at 1650 fps in the cz52. I've split open oak logs I've shot with fmj 9mm, .40, .223, and 7.62x25, and the 7.62x25 penetrated the best by far. I've seen pics of standard fmj cz52 shooting through body armor.

I like my cz52 but its a terrible pistol from many standpoints. Bad ergonomics, stiff stock trigger, heel mag release, SA only, tiny nearly invisible sights, extreme penetratation. Anybody for a .38?

[Snowdog]

Though not plentiful, there do exist some decent defensive JHPs and JSPs for the 7.62x25. Below is a photo of both an expanded JHP and JSP manufactured by Reed Ammunition after denim-clad play dough.

Though on the steep side price-wise, this quality ammunition merits a close look if a CZ52 is chosen for defense.

[Longbow]

think he plans to go the CHL route eventually and seems to prefer autoloaders over revolvers

Star BM 9mm won't be a bad choice. ' plenty of good defensive round available out there.

[c_yeager]

Hmmm... So where would 7.62x25mm reside from a ballistics standpoint? Between .380 and 9mm? 85 grain is a much ligher bullet than the 115gr 9mm round. But the Tokarev round is faster right? Hmmm.

Id personally place it slightly below .380 for real-world defense. I have no idea how they compare on paper, but we are looking at a tiny little bullet that isnt THAT much faster than 9mm, certainly not "faster enough" to make up the difference. Even the countries that adopted and developed the 7.62x25 have move UP to 9mm. My fealing is that any cartridge that has to take a significant upward step to get to 9MM is probably not the best choice.

He would likely to be better off with .380, 9mmMAK, or .38spec (+p), all of which are available in packages that are as cheap as the CZ52. For only minimal increases in price you can get into real life defensive calibers like 9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP if you shop around. Besides if he shoots the gun at all he is going to find that the difference in the price of ammo alone justifies a different choice.

I like the CZ52, but its a range toy.

[atblis]

it's just so much fun.

The trigger sucks
The firing pins breaks regularly
The safety/decocker thing is a joke and easily gets flipped on while shooting
Reliability is questionable
The sights suck
Accuracy is decent/good if you can shoot the damn thing.

[tbeb]

Besides a shotgun, another long gun option is a 30-30 lever action rifle. I'd load it with Federal 125 gr. JHP's, because penetration should be about the same as handgun ammunition.

If you can find a used one for a hundred bucks, then buy a 30-30 rifle or 20/16/12 gauge shotgun (with the proper ammunition for self defense), a .38 special/.357 magnum revolver, or a 9mm pistol. Remember, weapon needn't be cosmetically perfect--it only needs to be mechanically perfect. Good luck.

[The_Antibubba]

The CZ52 is a neat gun, but the muzzle blast'll be a more effective stopper than the bullet.

Makarovs are utterly reliable. So is a .38 revolver. If price is the sole issue, loan your friend a few bucks to cover him. This is his LIFE we're talking about.

[ChevellRCR]

You can get the CZ-52 and then change out the barrel with a 9mm barrel.

[Kacerdias]

Well, I ended up selling my Bersa Thunder .380 to him on a very extended payment plan. Besides, I picked up a S&W 637 Airweight as my next summer carry pistol and had no real use for the Bersa. He already knows how to handle the .380 I've taken him to the range a couple of times. And being a South Carolina native with family in law enforcement he was already familiar with safe storage and use of handguns - he just never had the money to buy one for himself.

I know some folks will bash the .380 caliber as a "mouse gun", but taking a look at these little Winchester SXT's, I sure as hell wouldn't want to get shot with one. Besides, he's fairly good at shot placement with smaller calibers. He had a bit of trouble firing my .40S&W.

When he's back on his feet I'll be introducing him to the world of CZ! Buahahhaha

[dasmi]

The Bersa is a nice gun, it should serve him well. I'll be picking one of those up in a couple of days....er...ordering one, picking it up ten 24-hour periods from the time and date of order. Thank you, California.

[Red Tornado]

I love my CZ, but for SD/HD that Bersa will be the best possible choice, given the economics. I think you made the best choice possible, helping to arm a friend by taking the High Road.

Well done,
RT

[cls12vg30]

I would not class a 7.62 Tokarev "below" .380 in defensive capability. In defensive safety, yes, because of the risk of overpenetration. The bullet is light, but the velocities tend to be in the Magnum range, with most surplus FMJ's running 1450-1600 fps, and some defensive ammo rated at over 2000. Ballistically I would expect 7.62 x 25 to be pretty close to .30 Carbine, if you fired the .30 from 4.75" barrel. I believe the .30 is a longer casing but is not bottlenecked like the Tok, I'm just guessing here I'd have to compare numbers to see for sure.

[patentnonsense]

Bulgarian Makarovs are just about as cheap as the CZ52, and (from what I've read) way more durable.

38 Special +P is a nice defensive round too, but I don't think you can buy a quality piece for $150, can you?

[Zundfolge]

A CZ52 with a 9x19 barrel (uses the 7.62x25 mags) would be better then sticking with the 7.62x25 ... however a barrel will run about $80-$90 bucks (plus there might be recoil spring issues). So for that money I'd push him toward a Makarov in 9x18 before I'd consider the CZ52 for home defense ... 9x18 is an adequate round for self defense (should be slightly better then .380) and can be found cheaply online.

[messiercat]

Out at the range yesterday I shot my CZ52 through the chrony with 40 year old Polish ammo. The mean velocity with 100 grain ammo translated to 486 foot pounds of energy. That's a lot to play with in terms of bullet construction.
I think the wheel was reinvented with the new popularity of other necked handgun cartidges like the Hornady .17 and .357 Sig. Probably there will be new platforms that improve on the CZ52 shortcomings and will exploit the potentials of this round. Meanwhile $100 for a powerful pistol ain't bad.

[Red Tornado]

Messiercat,
What was the actual velocity you measured?
RT

[messiercat]

Red, the first 10 rounds went like this:
1466, 1470, 1479, 1470, 1479, 1496, 1496, 1484, 1473, 1484.
I was surprised at the narrow spread.
I'm calling it my "30 magnum".

[messiercat]