Instant kill with a knife?

[1911JMB]

A friend of mine was recently at a store when it was robbed by a lone gunman. He, like me owns a pistol, but is not yet 21 and therefor can't carry it. He was ordered to the floor along with everybody else, and had a fair chance to stick his SOG Pentagon Elite into this guys neck or somthing while he was pointing his gun at the lady at the register. Instead, he decided not to tempt fate and did nothing. The dirt bag did get away.

All discussions about what actually happened aside, would it have been theoretically possible for my buddy to get this guy by surprise, and incapacitate him before he could have got a shot off? I think most of us know about brain stem shots, but what about instant kills with knives?

[birddog]

I'm certainly not speaking from experience but, speaking from extensive bowhunting experience I can say confidently that with the appropriate knife placement, the bad guy could have been dead right there. Sudden and violent bloodloss can bring near-instant unconsciousness. Would it have been appropriate in this situation? Would your friend likely have ended up dead too? Possible.

[ecos]

personally i wouldnt count on a instant kill. i would make trapping the gun arm and getting it pointed a safe direction #1 priority and then strike whatever i could reach. he might be dead within a few tenths of a second with a good thrust but could still pull the trigger without even thinking.

this is coming from someone with no formal training though

im glad your friend is ok

[hso]

No

There is no guarantee that anyone could have prevented the BG getting a shot off. The simple truth is you could kill the BG instantly with a blade inserted into the brain stem and vigorously sweapt to pith the brian and he still could have reflexivly pulled the trigger.

You can sever the arteries of the throat and still spend 20-30 seconds struggling with a guy in the red gooey syrup spurting from his neck.

Short of blowing his head off his shoulders, if the victem is pumped on adrenaline it is impossible to be sure to kill him instantly so he can't take a breath or flinch.

[JShirley]

guarantee

Like hso said, no guarantee. I have effected an instant kill on a deer with a knife, so I'm certain it can be done to a human.

[mr.trooper]

If he is strong enough to ram that Pentagon to through his skull, and sink the blade 5" into his brain, then sure; he PROBABLY would have died instantly. The only person i know of that has survived that kind of wound was paralised for a while, and now has a worse short-term memory than a goldfish.

The neck is interesting.

If you sever a carotid artery, Then they will be unconsious, and likely beyond help, within 15 seconds. There are two carotids: one on each side of the neck. They supply the head and neck with blood.

Another neck based target is one of the jugular veins. There are also two of these. The outer jugular, the one closest to the surface, drains the blood from the surface areas of the head, and from the face. The Internal jugular drains the blood from the brain.

Its fairly easy to kill an asailant with a knife, but it is very difficult to do it instantaniously. in the few second of life they have left, it is still possible that they oculd shoot you and run out the door. They wont get far, but you will be in just as bad a shape as the bad guy.

if you HAD to use a knife, you would be beter off puting the assailant into a hold or a lock, and then striking with the knife. This minimizes, but does not eliminate the possibility of getting your Arse shot off.

Sorry, but the bottome line is the CQB's are deadly buisness no matter how you slice it.

[shermacman]

Pretty much agree with the above posters. If you are close enough for a knife strike, you are close enough to control the BG's weapon. Control first, strike second. A knife is a very dangerous weapon in the hands of an experienced user.

[James T Thomas]

An indirect answer for you.
The ancient Japanese "bushi;" called in the West, "Samuai" were well aware that even their awesome "Katanas" were subject to "mutual killing" by an adversary who knew he was not a skilled enough to defeat his attacker, but had resolved to kill him for his efforts regardless of his own death. That was even in the face of the terrible sword being capable of "cutting" a man from the top of his head through to his groin!

So, by inference, I would suppose that a knife; even a "Bowie" or similar blade, would be unable to inflict an immediate incapacitation upon an adversary who was aware of your intentions, and had made up his mind to kill you for your efforts.

The battlefield spearmen in feudal Japan had developed a twirling procedure to incise a figure eight chunk out of your heart in the same motion of the inserting thrust to preclude themselves from also getting pierced, and they still were killed often also.
So...

[trueblue1776]

YES YES YES YES, and I can let you prove it without hurting each other!!!!! The brachial artery runs down each side of the neck (on the side toward the back), even a light punch will drop most anyone (light, dont cause your friends any permanant damage). Even the split second disruption of blood to the brain of a light punch will put you down INSTANTLY, a heavy punch will put you unconcious. It is recomended that you use the meat of your hand or arm so as to not injure the vessel. It is ridiculous easy.

DISCLAIMER, THIS IS FOR "INFORMATION" ONLY, IF YOU DONT HAVE PRACTICE YOU CAN REALL REALLY HURT SOMEONE!!!!!!

Live and learn baby

[bratch]

Instant no guarantee but a good comma cut will definatley add in the chances.

[rhubarb]

Only instant incapacitation is through damage to the central nervous system. Knives don't generally work well for penetrating bone to get at the cns.

I don't care what you seen or done, you ain't ever gonna convince me any other way. I never been in combat, but I've shot deer. I've seen deer shot through both front legs, shoulder bones broken, with no identifiable tissue left in their obliterated thoracic cavity, run 20 yards. Even with literally no heart in their chest. As has been said, you better count on a fight for your life even if you get in a good first lick with a knife.

[Sunray]

Gun fighting rule number one is have a gun. Number two is don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Your buddy did exactly the right thing.

[cz75bdneos22]

No...No...No.
we have been desensitized by watching to many Hollywood action films, etc.
hell, why marinate on your response just do dit and live with the consequences...if your'e already been thinking about combating someone, then you must believe in your abilities to do so effectively...why postpone finding out what ya got? run what ya brung, YMMV. for the record when i say you, i'm talking about us all, not you per se...

[palerider1]

with little training on this subject i think i would probably lay down too, unless the perp started killing people, then i would look at all the odds and do whatever i could to stop him, calculating all of my odds and opportunities carfully but quickley.
paul gilson
palerider1

[wizard of oz]

The brachial artery is in the arm. Think that you meant carotid artery.

There are other options than going for an 'instant kill'. Can't pull the trigger or hold the gun if the tendons of the wrist are cut. Can't aim if the eyes are damaged or full of blood. Can't escape if stuck in the leg or foot. (ie sticking them and running away might work).

Statistically it is probably safer to do nothing. The offender is usually more interested in money than killing someone.

[CentralTexas]

I would say a good quality lockblade 4" + and extreme force would penetrate a skull and drop them. With my luck it would be a politician I skull stick and there would be no effect...
Prison method- multiple stab wounds quickly for max blood loss. If able to attack from blindside where you could get control of weapon arm or bring perp down with you on top inflicting wounds maybe.
I'm kind of in the camp of better to take action than die on the floor but his gut feel may have been correct as he lived...
CT

[1911JMB]

I guess what you guys are telling me is that it might be possible, but its not likely. Thats just as well, because the odds are, if it happens again, my friend will have his gun with him.

[hso]

For those of you proposing a stab to the skull into the brain to get an instant incapacitating kill don't count on immediate results each time every time. A friend of mine was a surgical tech and would come over with tales of injuries brought in. He had a guy sent up from ER with a large screw driver stuck in the top of his melon. The guy was very much still conscious and even joked about how "screwed" he was before they put him under for the brain surgery. He survived. -

http://emj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/17/3/225

[middy]

With a big, heavy blade, like a large Bowie or kukri, an attempt to chop off the gun hand might be worthwhile.

If you're bigger and stronger or more highly trained in unarmed combat, a lock or hold followed by strike with the knife might work.

Untrained with a 5" dagger? Lay down unless you think he's going to start shooting everyone.

[Jim Watson]

Lay low unless you are sure the criminal is fixing to start killing off witnesses, no matter how armed.

I recall an incapacitating knife stroke from old military manuals, stabbing straight down into the triangle of trapezius, collarbone, and neck.

[1911JMB]

This friend of mine is a practiced street fighter with no formal training. He doesent know fancy moves, just how to take hits and give out more and better hits. He could have beat the tar out of the guy if they were both unarmed, but since the pistol was involved, yes it looks like he did the right thing. I have 6 years of martial arts training, I carry an A-F folder, and I think I would have probably done just the same thing, unless like everybody pointed out, he started shooting.

[JShirley]

Gun fighting rule number one is have a gun. Number two is don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

If you're going to spout silly "rules", how about not showing up for a fight? That would appear to be "Rule Number One".

As for knife vs. firearm, the advantages of firearms use are distance and ease of use. At close range, a blade, used well, will kill at least as quickly as any firearm.

As I have said before, knives are rightly used as tools by the vast majority of folks. To deny the possibility of effective knife use, however, is to display one's ignorance.

John

[hillbilly]

A large bowie or a khukri can, with one good chop, cut somebody's head clean off.

Ghurkas practice this very move as their method of "sentry removal."

If that's not an "instant kill" then I contend that nothing short of instant vaporization with a nuclear weapon can cause an "instant kill."


hillbilly

[1911JMB]

Very true hillbilly, but who is going to have something that big for edc, especially in a yuppee store?

[Gordon]

I humanely slaughter farm animals by pushing a 6" or longer very sharp blade (a 1" to 1.5" straight back blade 8" is BEST) thru the side of a quadrapeds neck just below the spine. Then by pivoting the handle away until the blade comes out the severed neck the animmal drops instantly from the massive pressure loss. You CAN go back by making a return draw cut to the spinal column and sever the head.
Interestingly , 1976 I went to a class hosted by Michael Eccanis(sp?) and some hwa rang do master. Mike taught various sentry removal techniques which relied on heart penetration/aorta slicing with overhand frontal /rear assaults. He said you had to 'ride' the prey for a half minute or so though Also showed to make the poke under the armpit like you stick a pig- I believe this is 'Spanish style'.
He also showed an unusual rear of lower skull attack where you go up under rear of skull and wiggle the knife side to side "like shucking an oyster" that he said was 'the only 100% instant kill"