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Old March 13, 2016, 08:16 PM   #1
mp510
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870 Extraction Problems

I took my new to me 16 gauge Wingmaster to the range today. I was shooting Herter's ammo in it from Cabela's. I experienced the following problem when shooting it:

Patterns really well. However, it has some extraction issues. First round extracted normally and ejected like a champ. The second shot required me to mortar it off the range bench while articulating the pump in order to unlock the action/ extract the case (which then ejected like a champ). The last round- I had to manhandle it a bit (no mortaring) to unlock the action/ extract the hull, which subsequently ejected. My hope is that my gun will be OK after I detail strip it and clean it.

My intention is to detail strip it and do a more thorough clean/ lube job. I'll probably also try another brand or two of ammo. (The nice thing about the Herter's ammo is that it's more economical than other brands- though in the past Dick's has had good prices on economy 16 ga loads). [If the Herter's ammo is a problem, I have unfortunately, already invested in a case of it]

Any other thoughts or suggestions?
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Old March 13, 2016, 08:54 PM   #2
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Polish/hone the chamber. Brownell's and Midway sell the hones. The Herter's shells are similar to Winchester's Wal-Mart loads in that they will stick in some guns. Honing the chamber will make them extract more reliably. Your gunsmith can do it if you'd rather.
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Old March 13, 2016, 09:04 PM   #3
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Buy decent brass head ammo next time.

The steel head ammo like Herters and Wallyworld Winchester expands and won't let go.

rc
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Old March 13, 2016, 11:21 PM   #4
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Thanks for the info.

With the exception of premium loads, I have assumed that plated steel heads weresort of par for the course now. Like most shooters I've generally had positive experiences with plated (brass or zinc) steel-head shells (remington, federal, rio, herters) in my various 12 gauge guns (over unders, pumps, semis)--problems were because of the gun moreso than the ammo.

I knew that some people had problems with the Winchester value ammo in the past, which I had avoided. I never realized that was because of the head.

With 16 gauge it appears that there is two types of ammo- expensive, hot hunting loads- which run about $15 a box and economy loads that are $5 to $9- all of which (referring to the economy loads) I believe are plated steel head hulls . I will try some other ammo and see how things pan out.

If I can't find a load that works, then I'll hone the chamber...which will hopefully work.

Last edited by mp510; March 13, 2016 at 11:27 PM.
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Old March 14, 2016, 07:09 AM   #5
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Many of the extraction issues in todays shotguns in particular come from the ammo as has been indicated.
Just a quick warning that you should not get carried away with honing. Barrel material is somewhat soft and you can make your chamber oversize if you are not careful. Hone with a fine stone to just get read of shallow tool marks, and then finish by polishing.
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Old March 14, 2016, 08:59 AM   #6
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If you use an automotive drum brake wheel cylinder hone, it is way cheaper than a gunsmith's ball hone, it addresses ridges better than a ball hone, the light springs pretty much prevent over removal of metal, and no follow up polishing is required.
Before someone refutes it, I will add that I am a former gunsmith (although I referred to myself as a gun mechanic because wood hates me) and I have run 3 machine shops.
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Old March 14, 2016, 09:36 AM   #7
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I've heard of others having extraction issues with Herters shotgun ammo. You can hone and polish or just buy a name brand ammo. Your choice.
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Old March 14, 2016, 10:15 AM   #8
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As Virginian mentions "use an automotive drum brake wheel cylinder hone" .

I've done more than a few and always used the automotive hone. It works well . It does give a rather good finish and he's likely spot on saying no further polishing is needed. I usualy did a polish as well however.

Truth is the shellls are the real problem, and the chamber work is to compensate for the lousy properties of steel used in this application.
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Old March 14, 2016, 10:35 AM   #9
jaguarxk120
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Do what rcmodel has said, buy better shells.

You are not the only one having problems the that shell, there are others having extraction problems.

Try some Remington STS or Gun Clubs, also Federal Top Gun shells.
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Old March 14, 2016, 01:56 PM   #10
Yo Mama
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nothing to fix this!

It's not the shells, polishing won't help, and it's not you!

I had the same problem, and it's pretty common that the barrel is out of spec. It's by millimeters, but enough that Remington will send you a new barrel free of charge. Call them and have them send it now. Don't mess around with anything else.
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Old March 14, 2016, 04:42 PM   #11
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not sure if a 16ga is to small but the brake hone trick works very well in 12 ga 870's. They go from iffy extraction on even some quality brass to rapid fire on the trap range using the cheapest winchester promo's for hundreds of round without an issue. Might be worth a look if buying better ammo is out of the question. the cheap italian stuff still sticks sometimes though.
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Old March 14, 2016, 04:48 PM   #12
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oh yea, like others have said, its the brake hones that work, they're two centrifugally driven stones on a spring, you use a drill. The ball hones sold as gunsmithing tools i have no experience with, but they are used for engine rebuilds where a scratched and inconsistent surface is acceptable. The brake hones are nice in that they are self correcting, and will not take the chamber out of round if you screw up.
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Old March 14, 2016, 05:00 PM   #13
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Quote:

I had the same problem, and it's pretty common that the barrel is out of spec. It's by millimeters, but enough that Remington will send you a new barrel free of charge. Call them and have them send it now. Don't mess around with anything else.
I can't fathom they'll be interested in fixing 1955's problem- if in fact that's what it turns out to be. Considering the amount of function testing that Remington would do back then, I'm going to hope that is not the problem.
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Old March 14, 2016, 05:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
oh yea, like others have said, its the brake hones that work, they're two centrifugally driven stones on a spring, you use a drill. The ball hones sold as gunsmithing tools i have no experience with, but they are used for engine rebuilds where a scratched and inconsistent surface is acceptable. The brake hones are nice in that they are self correcting, and will not take the chamber out of round if you screw up.
If I end up honing it, I will probably buy a Flex hone Chamber hone- it looks kind of of a bore brush and chucks into a drill, and it shaped/ sized specifically. They are supposed to be fairly easy to use and only cost about $25.

Most brake hones are designed for 13/16 up- a little over the diameter of a 16ga chamber. There are some available for small vehicles that would work, but based on what I'm reading some need to be mod'ed to work right in the size range that I would need and there can be issues with even honing pressure- so I want to avoid that.

I have also heard of impromptu tricks involving valve lapping compound a case- but I don't want to do that either.
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Old March 14, 2016, 05:12 PM   #15
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I've heard of others having extraction issues with Herters shotgun ammo. You can hone and polish or just buy a name brand ammo. Your choice.
It's looking like a theme with their low-brass loads. Hopefully I will scare up some better ammo at a decent price.
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Old March 14, 2016, 07:34 PM   #16
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I just love the reply's about extraction problems.

The first answer is to get out the hone, grinding wheels, and files to modify

a perfectly good shotgun.

Never, never looking at the shells.
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Old March 14, 2016, 08:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virginian View Post
If you use an automotive drum brake wheel cylinder hone, it is way cheaper than a gunsmith's ball hone, it addresses ridges better than a ball hone, the light springs pretty much prevent over removal of metal, and no follow up polishing is required.
Before someone refutes it, I will add that I am a former gunsmith (although I referred to myself as a gun mechanic because wood hates me) and I have run 3 machine shops.
I agree with you; I've used both. I just mentioned the ball hones out of reflex, I guess.

xk120; I don't know about you but I want 100 percent functioning with all ammunition, especially from an 870, which are reliable weapons. Sure, find some brass head cases, sounds simple. But it is harder to find them for 16 gauge, and if some simple, minor work on his 870 will make it reliable will all ammo, why wouldn't he want to do that? (Or have it done, as the case may be?)

I sold my Glock 21 (which I otherwise loved) because it wouldn't reliably shoot my reloads, which my 1911 did just fine. I don't want to be in a situation where all I have is reloads and a gun that malfunctions with them. I'm sure mp510 would like an 870 that functions with whatever 16 gauge loads he can find, not just expensive and harder to find brass head cases.
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Old March 14, 2016, 10:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp510 View Post
I have also heard of impromptu tricks involving valve lapping compound a case- but I don't want to do that either.
I've used valve grinding compound on the chambers of severel guns. Notably on a SxS Stoeger used in CAS. Shells just fall right out and it's been over 10 years since I put good ammo in that gun.

I chucked a rod to a variable speed drill with a wet patch loaded with compound. Speed is bad so lower rpm is best. Keep the patch moving to avoid egging the chamber. If you feel uncomfortable using this method then don't bother. I've used it on 4 vaqueros and 2 rifles with no issues. Had I known about Virginian's method back then I probably would had tried it intead. IDK
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Old March 17, 2016, 08:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
I just love the reply's about extraction problems.

The first answer is to get out the hone, grinding wheels, and files to modify

a perfectly good shotgun.

Never, never looking at the shells.
Have you seen how rough some of the chambers are in these newer 870s? It's such a common problem and a known fix for extraction issues that people just automatically say to do it because it's usually the problem. Sure, junk wally world aluminum shells aren't exactly going to make things better but those guns are pretty rough. Go on any shotgun forum and you will see hundreds of people saying the same exact thing.

We're not talking about a $10,000 O/U that won't eject bulk pack winchester target loads here...we're talking about a $300 pump gun that you can buy at some hardware stores that won't feed some of the most common shells you run into...especially if you're buying shells that coincide with your $300 shotgun budget.
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Old March 17, 2016, 10:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Have you seen how rough some of the chambers are in these newer 870s? It's such a common problem and a known fix for extraction issues that people just automatically say to do it because it's usually the problem.
That makes sense, especially on a new Express.

As I mentioned earlier on, mine is a 1955 vintage Wingmaster, which predates most of the QC problems and being a Wingmaster, should be to a higher standard of fit and finish than an Express. The chamber looks good (I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't).

I was able to get some Fiocchi shells. Hopefully those will yield better results.
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Old March 17, 2016, 10:43 PM   #21
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The newer Expresses are finished better than a few years ago. All the manufacturers cut back on polishing the chambers just about the time the el cheapo shells showed up. I have seen Mossbergs, Novas, and even a BPS being beat on the ground, too. No 37s though; they won't take it.
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Old March 17, 2016, 11:12 PM   #22
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As I mentioned earlier on, mine is a 1955 vintage Wingmaster, which predates most of the QC problems and being a Wingmaster, should be to a higher standard of fit and finish than an Express. The chamber looks good (I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't).
If it's a 55 Wingmaster keep the hone and stones away from that barrel. It's as in spec as it gets. Choose better ammo.
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Old March 17, 2016, 11:57 PM   #23
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Yes I know it's an older gun that was never prone to have those issues. I'm just noting that people are very quick to say that regarding 870s because they had such a big problem with that. I think that most of that was in their fairly recent express line...I don't remember them ever having issues like that with their wingmaster line and I don't recall any with their police line either. I guess it could randomly happen to any gun from any company if they didn't catch it in their qc.

So now if you say "870 extraction problem".....most of the time it's related to that so that's what people are going to say. Just like I mentioned before that people automatically say it. Didn't mean to cause confusion when I went off on a rant on the newer ones.
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Old March 18, 2016, 01:16 AM   #24
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I just love the reply's about extraction problems.

The first answer is to get out the hone, grinding wheels, and files to modify

a perfectly good shotgun.

Never, never looking at the shells.






it is the first reply to a well known recurring problem with an easy reliable solution that fixes 99% of far from perfectly good barrels.
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Old March 18, 2016, 08:36 AM   #25
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mjsdwash, funny thing all of the posters that recommend using file, hone, and grinding wheels on a barrel, not one of them is a gun manufacturer.

I wonder how many of those posters are gun manufacturer's building and selling guns today?
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