12GA Rifle From HELL--

[hubel458]

I tried one more 1050gr slug in the Savage. Got 2600 fps
and put a slight crack in the stock.Repaired ok for my
lesser loads.Will whittle out a thumbhole stock
for it sometime from one of big blanks I have..Ed.

[hubel458]

In original barreled 87 only use RE-7 loads in plastic.
Don't use AA-1680 as the case bulges too much
just ahead of rim in two spots due to extractor cutouts.
New heavy barrel will solve that as we make cutouts
differenr for strength.Got barrel coming.Ed

[beerslurpy]

That sounds like outstanding good fun. It looks like enough power to hunt dinosaurs with room to spare.

Any thoughts as to whether the internet interest in this new toy will be enough to do something commercially sustainable in terms of projectiles or brass or even finished ammo? I think very few people have your expertise in crafting handloads, so some sort of standard safe formula for whatever ends up being the popular overclocking gun would really help to increase the popularity of this new hobby.

I am personally intrigued by the idea of a 12 ga lever gun that can dish out energy ratings in the 50 cal range without being dangerous, but I think that the break-open type guns will be more versatile in terms of being able to fit more powder and projectile without getting into feeding problems due to length. How difficult/expensive it is it to get a super strong break-open shotgun made? Has anyone tried doing an O/U or S/S type yet?

Any thoughts on whether this would work as an anti-tank weapon? Some of the high-end figures for velocity and ft/lbs (3200 fps/20k ftlbs) make it seem like a regular thunderbolt of zeus. Does the guy doing the super-loads have a muzzlebrake or is he just taking the full force on his shoulder?

[hubel458]

Beerslurpy--Rob doesn't have brake on his yet.
But he handles the occasional hairy load ok.
So do I with with my hottest ones.As far as commercial
application, big actions won't sell like model
70s no how. For Anybody building these we have loads figured out
for whatever strength gun they have. Designing hairy
break actions fits using expensive doubles. That
why I used Bolt Savage and Rob used big falling block.Ed.

[madmike]

There is no rifle that can possibly be built on this Earth that will do more than scratch the paint on any tank since the 60s.

Armored cars and rhinos, however...

[hubel458]

Even older WW2 tanks weren't affected by antitank
guns.Antitank guns of the day were good for
jeeps,trucks.Now the solid brass Bridger slug in ours would
tear through trucks and and light vehicles.And they
penetrate though big tough game animals real good.Ed

[madmike]

You MIGHT be able to make a man-portable 20mm with tungsten punch through a M48. And the DP loads on a 40mm grenade launcher will punch a Sherman.

But nothing newer is susceptible.

[hubel458]

Mike-The Yugos have a shoulder fired 20mm,
where back of barrel is above the shoulder,and some
gases are vented back like on a recoilles rifle,
to cut down recoil.Someone had suggested we do that with
our 12ga.But the weight and pad does the job.Ed.

[madmike]

Can you make one for a Mauser action or a Martini-Henry?

[AJAX22]

Would it be possible to trim the casings down to work in a 3.5" 12 gauge such as a remmington 870? could a loading be worked up that would be safe, reliable, and potent using that combination?

[hubel458]

Mausers aren't big enough for full length.Mauser Geha
conversion would handle 2.75 inch-- The Greener-Martini
12ga would handle 3 inch.The cases can be cut back to 3.5,
3.0, 2.75, etc. In a 870 with alloy barrel with
heavier muzzle you could get
4000 ft lb loads using our cases.Ed

[AJAX22]

Are there any manufacturer's out there who are willing to manufacture a barrel like that? or any current production barrels for the 870 that would fit the bill?

Thanks.

[hubel458]

Ajax22-I don't know of any who make barrels for 870
like that. It should be alloy and thick like the NEF.
Custom gunsmiths might do it, but it would be 600bucks
with end on it and hardware for mag tube to fit 870.
Pacnor made our 12 ga barrels,
but they are designed to thread into a reciever.
Quite a bit simpler.
You could check with them.
And a Nef is about 225 bucks.Ed

[madmike]

When I asked about NEF earlier, I was speaking of the ultra-heavy, with 3/16" wall thickness or so, think it's on a 10 gauge frame but 12 gauge. That would be limited to 3.5"? Or could it go to 3.75" or more?

[hubel458]

Mike-It comes with 3 inch chamber. And could be lengthened
to our ful length case. I will be lengthening chamber in
my NEF in next couple weeks.I got all the testing done with
various 3 inch and shorter cases, and am going long.
THe chamber for full length is 3.92 inches if you use a
rifle type freebore configuration. 3.90 inches if
you use shotgun cone type freebore.The cone or freebore
is in addition to chamber.Ed

[madmike]

I think the NEF in full length, with a pound or so of lead in the butt, sounds like big medicine for small game like Cadillacs, low flying 747s and Space Shuttles

Do let me know how it turns out.

[Metapotent]

DUDE!

I had no idea what you people were talking about until I looked at the first page of the thread...

That thing is insane!

How much would it cost the average Joe to put something like that together?

[hubel458]

I did my own work. Used a barrel that was a reject,
but works great and 20 buck stock, on the Savage,
which was 400 bucks. Got $700 in it.If you get good barrel
stock, brass ,dies(I made my own), etc.About a thousand
with labor extra. If you use NEF at 225 bucks, use
3 inch turned brass cases, get dies ,about 500 bucks .Ed

[ARKIESTEEL]

When does the 0000 buck load come out for it? Something like .40 cal buckshot about what say 30 or so pellets

[hubel458]

I shot 18 single oughts at about 2000 fps.They
fit the shot cup I used in the case just right.

I have a future break action project,with a
2 bore barrel on hand, that will be smoothbore,
for which I have to find an action.I plan on shooting
15 .50 cal lead balls in it.Ed.

[madmike]

I have a future break action project,with a
2 bore barrel on hand, that will be smoothbore,
for which I have to find an action.I plan on shooting
15 .50 cal lead balls in it.Ed.

[hubel458]

Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.

[hubel458]

I mentioned above using starter powder above
small primers. Thr reason is the diameter
of the powder charge in big cases relative to
small primers. I had some squib loads in
short cases(NEF & 87) where the powder burnt
hole through the middle of charge and left
powder sticking to sides of case. Shotgun flake powder solves that.Loads that went boom and
burnt all the powder without starter powder
still had effect like a flintlock.
Even with RE-7, so I solved it.Example
in 3" Rocky Mtn cases(NEF) with shotgun primer
I use 10 gr Blue Dot and 110 gr of RE-7
and on slow rifle powder side use 10 gr
BD and 180 gr of RE-25.With faster RE-7
less volumne, space taken up by wads.
Our longer or cut back case with BMG primer,
starter not needed as primer is 3 times stronger and
puts out larger diameter flame due
to that strength.That NEF is a blast with
the long case, and little harder to hold down
than much heavier Savage.Ed

[hubel458]

Good news I got the 1887's hammer beefed up so
it fires the bmg primers in our case.
We will be testing small primers, with starter powder
in plastic and Rocky Mtn cases using RE-12 and 15 powders.
I think they will do better than RE-7 and have
less case expansion.Ed

[hubel458]

Testing the cases,plastic and brass with small
primers and starter. A big find...Can't do
this for reliable ignition if the cases
are ballon head, whether plastic or brass.The cases must have the area between side and
the primer at least .200 thick.One reason is
strength. And some plastic I have measured is
only about .060 thick there and the protrusion
in the center for primer is .140 above that
thickness.. So 10 gr of starter powder is
in a groove so to speak and not on top of primer!!! That isn't good. I cut the cases
off at the brass base, poured in 10 gr
of flake powder and saw how it laid
in the case. Nice thing is that a most brands of cases are thick enough, like Win AAs.
So far RE-15 and Blue Dot starter looks
very good, and easy on cases.Velocity as good as RE-7.Will keep testing and I ran out of
RE-12 and the shops have no more, So
it will be RE-15, which I think turning
out best, or RE-7 in smaller
amounts.Ed.