12GA Rifle From HELL--

[hubel458]

Doing more research at someones suggestion on the
Saiga-12 shotgun. It has strong rotary bolt, and alloy
barrel. Has 3 inch chamber and shortened version of our
case should allow velocities like I get with NEF or
better. Loading brass cases you would have to crimp
slugs good so no sharp corner interferes with
feeding.Ed

[hubel458]

We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4
inch chamber and we will test with our cases cut back and
with Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic.Neat gun.Ed

[madmike]

Is a lever gun bolt strong enough to take the pressure? The bolt doesn't lock.

I got to see a thick-walled H&R built on a 10 gauge receiver. Definitely strong enough. I'll eventually see about getting one.

[hubel458]

Mike- This is relica 1887 with forged heat treated reciever.
The rolling block type breech locks in back of reciever
against a two shoulders like back of Greeener breech block.
So the strength it has is strength of sidewalls.
It is as strong as good break action.They tested
it at White labs with shotgun size cartridge to
43,000 psi. Three times normal shotgun powder load and
3 oz shot.Ed

[madmike]

Excellent info. Thanks.

[hubel458]

Testing levergun. 600gr at over 1600. From a case
shortened to 2.45 inches , matching plastic cases when thet are
crimped. This allows brass case to feed from magazine.
With a long barrel, which is in the works, it
would get couple hundred ft more.Ed

[Don't Tread On Me]

What is the point of a cartridge like that? Just go .50BMG and be done with it.

[madmike]

What is the point of a cartridge like that? Just go .50BMG and be done with it.

.50s are banned in some locations. Rifles are not legal for hunting in some locations. .50s are much more expensive to build/buy, since these are built on modified actions of existing weapons. And .50s aren't even close to the power some of these loads achieve.

[hubel458]

Yep there are 10 million deer hunters tied to shotgun
only deer hunting areas. And the areas are expanding like here in MI.And with the power of our setup you can extend range
for big game hunting to 150-200 yds but due to blunt
heavy slugs, don't have the long range travel of rifles
with spitzer bullets, to be a danger in built up
populated areas.All around my section there is 30 homes
within long range rifle capabilities
and roads with traffic, two are blacktops, and
a shot elevated up a little from a rifle that misses
target couldn't be guaranteed to not hit something
with people involved.Ed.

[hubel458]

You folks here on THR have put this thread in the
lead as far as views, compared to other forums
where we are posting the progress of the 12GA FH
developement. We really appreciate the interest.
I got guys here looking at the 1887 levergun and they
sure like it,and some plan getting one.Ed

[madmike]

Ed, please check your email.

[hubel458]

Mike--It got vaporized or something, didn't get to me.Ed

[hubel458]

Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

[hubel458]

I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected of but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahed of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

[hubel458]

Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Work good. Now will cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads should do.
Will get little less velocity in 20 in bbl.
But I will have loads figured out for
a bunch of guys here and in Australia.
I also feel now that have I found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion, to
the turned cases that good low base plastic
will do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns. Ed

[hubel458]

Good news-First tested 87 levergun with
Rocky Mtn and plastic cases.
Using Rocky Mtn cases cut back.Cut case
back to length that feeds from magazine,
2.45 in. That is about max length of any
loaded and crimped 2.75 case.Got 600gr to 1700
with 20 in barrel.120 gr of RE-7.No squib loads.
Cases eject good, expanded a little
ahead of base .003, resize ok.Now the second
good news. Seeing as how these non traditional
powders used in shotgun didn't expand the
turned cases a lot( in our cases made from
bmg brass it took over 10 loads to expand
bases enough to need sizing)............
I figured time to check plastic cases.
Plastic cases took the same load as turned
brass in 1887 and the NEF.120 gr RE-7 in
1887(It wouldn't hold anymore without
a lot of compression) and
140 gr in NEF. Tested Fed,Win,Rem,highbase,
and low base. So you guys out there
who want to get the power that NEF and
1887 are able to deliver use good plastic
cases as a way to get started with
600 gr slugs.You don't need heatreated
for those speeds just hard cast
from wheel wts.. Win AA 2 & 3/4 best for 1887.
It is lowbase and easiest to resize.
To get potential(extra 200 fps) it needs a long barrel.They made long barrels in original.
I used federal 3 inch case in Nef.By the way modern plastic cases have steel bases with
copper plating so they are strong. I tried
one of the fast shotgun powders, that
previously expanded the brass
turned case to much, in plastic cases in
NEF and at 50 gr case was sticking
and had expanded quite a bit, but same
case with 140gr RE-7 popped out easy,
and resized easy.Ed

[hubel458]

In testing plastic cases in NEF and 87 I get
good case life with RE-7 loads. In 87 a Rem case
fired 5 times and it looks good. In NEf a Federal case
fired 6 times and looks good. Of course you can fire them
once or twice and throw away at 3-5 cents each.
I got long heavy barrel ordered for 87 levergun,
and then we will be able to put zip to the slugs.Ed

[hubel458]

I put spitzer point on a Dixie 600
heat treated slug,
and got weight down to 500 gr.
It got 3800 fps in Savage, 16,000 ft lbs.
Used 350 gr of fast ball powder blend.
And barrel is still mirror clean- the faster
I shoot them the cleaner the barrel.
That new thin lube and heatreating
is doing the job.Ed

[madmike]

Awesome. I'm going to eventually get one of the heavy barreled NEFs. How far can that go?

[jrou111]

I put spitzer point on a Dixie 600
heat treated slug,
and got weight down to 500 gr.
It got 3800 fps in Savage, 16,000 ft lbs

Now that's alot of energy

[hubel458]

The NEf gets about 2200 with 600 gr using our case.
About 1900 using turned case or plastic case.Getting
4800 ft lbs with plastic is the real feat I think.Ed

[madmike]

Is that FPS or ft/lbs?

[hubel458]

Nef-2200 fps our case - 1900 fps turned or plastic case.
the 1900 fps in plastic is 4800 ft/lbs energy.
I also saved lot a time loading plastic by not doing a
roll crimp which is a pain with once fired star crimped cases.
Just remove crimped part, load it, hold slug in and
use glue gun. slug stays tight and slug along with card wad
lets powder build to good pressure with no
squib loads.Ed.

[madmike]

Even with the superheavy barrel on the 10ga frame? It seemed very robust when I handled it.

[hubel458]

Yes it strong and if you get 2-3 more lbs in the butt,
recoil with a 4800 ft lb load is
tamed pretty good.Ed.