12GA Rifle From HELL--

[hubel458]

Got testing done with Rocky Mtn cases,
small primers and 10gr of Blue Dot starter
powder. The small primer and starter powder
take the place of a BMG primer,
that is in our cases cut back shorter
for use in NEF and 1887 levergun.
In NEF 3" Rocky Mtn brass starter powder
and 140 gr of RE-15.Space filled up by card wad and felt wads, amount depending on how you seat
the slug. About 1800 fps.
In the 87 case cut to 2.4" the
length that feeds from mag, 120 gr of RE-15,
starter powder, and one thin .045 card wad.
That's all it holds.Slug loaded flush.
A little over 1600. With long barrels
a couple hundred more for both guns.
Will have plastic RE- 15 results in
couple days.Ed.

[hubel458]

Results of RE-15 testing in plastic cases.
600 gr hardened Dixie slug and 10gr
of Blue dot starter powder in both lengths.
In Nef, 3 inch case is about 2.6 crimped,
and 120 gr RE-15 max load. In 1887, 2.75 inch
cases are about 2.35 crimped, 110 gr RE-15
max load. In 2.75 case thats all it will
hold,with card wad, in longer make up space with wads.The reason I'm checking plastic is so many shotgun reloading guys want more power for big game, and they are set up to
load plastic. With starter powder- a caution.
You must put starter in keeping case level,and the powder put in on top, must be put in slow
so as not to push it away from primer.
Greg Sappington clued me in on another powder that may do the job without starter powder
and be slow enough to get velocities up
without to much pressure. It's IMR SR-4759.
Will have some in couple days.I made contact
to get some of these loads pressure tested,
to check my pressure calculations..Ed.

[madmike]

We're still paying attention. Keep it coming

[hubel458]

Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder.
All plastic cases so far.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp with out a high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Next few weeks will get these
pressure tested.Ed

[hubel458]

Tested IMR 4759 in 3" Rocky Mtn brass turned cases, in the NEF. Got max load of 105gr. 24" bbl, 600gr slug and 3/4 inch of
felt wads for cushion.1900+ fps. Perfect ignition, clean
burning and didn't expand cases to much, so resizing
worked good.Ed

[hubel458]

Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

[hubel458]

I want to see this scaled up to take
700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc,
or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else
interested jump in. Were going to give it
a try. Ed.

[hubel458]

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

[hubel458]

I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

[hubel458]

Checking oh a Tarhunt 12ga bolt gun.
They say they are strong. Will check to see
how heavy the barrels are, and if they would
work for our slower powder loads that have
higher muzzle pressure.Ed.

[hubel458]

I am working on
scaling up falling block to handle
700NE, 600Ne. 12ga FH, etc.We wanted to go to bigger 4bore size copy of Wickcliffe
but the short hammer carried on the breech
is too light to fire big primers.and hammer spring can't be made heavier either.So I am
drawing one scaled up to 12ga and 700NE size.
If used with our 12ga FH case will have to have
primer bushing........
SO- today the boy and I set up a mill.
And we along with old machinist guy couple miles away will build a model scaled up with
basic action and breech block designed to work with lever,toggle link. 1.25" barrel thread.

And for the 4bore size falling block, the
HSFB, 1.5 barrel thread, 2' wide action we
will combine a little from Stevens 44 1/2,
Ruger #1, Win 85, Sharps highpower falling
block. The Wickcliff copies a lot in its breech
from the Stevens.We will use a big hammer in the
rear of action with heavy springs,
to fire big primers. Half cock safety.Those
we appropriated from other break actions and
along with trigger and a lever are on
the way from
Gun Parts.Ed.

[hubel458]

Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that
I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed

[hubel458]

A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have to put in my max loads, but go down a little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of case fired 25 times,
in my 700HE test barrel, to show you
how cases stretch and thinout from
repeated firings of high pressure loads.
You can see where it is thinning just
above the belt. Half of the loads were
high pressure loads. Regular 10,000 ft
lb loads wouldn't stretch cases at all.
This is made from bmg brass like our
12GA FH. 700 is belted and 12ga has rim.Ed

[hubel458]

Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear
extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

[hubel458]

I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
long enough for our long case with little
work. Work long case as singleshot.
Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
goose guns built same way.The
left locking lug woud get a bite out on
its end if front was bored out to .900,
tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
cutout to support case opposite extractor.
The original lugs will guide for feeding.
Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.By the way
would work for 700NE,My 700HE by keeping
pressures moderate. Could handle 600Ne,
full pressure. Ed

[hubel458]

Other bolt guns with rear lugs that would be
neat Mauser 12ga GEHA like conversions, would be
Champlin and Golden Eagle 7000. That Champlin
would make a real beautiful 12ga.
Hell to give the French equal time............
now watch out........... you could use
a rear locking MAS.Its bolt is .800", a
tenth of an inch bigger than most, including
mauser, bolt actions. Best damn use for that
gun that man could conjure up.With
its larger bolt a real easy conversion,
and with two rear lugs, it'll handle
Magnum loads fine.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill. Anyone with some surplus long
end mills and R8 tooling, holders,big drills
let me know. I need a bargain on some.Ed.

[hubel458]

Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. Bur the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

[hubel458]

In response to guys who can't find 4759
we will test powders in the same speed range.
Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 4227.
Both didn't ignite good with small primers
in plastic cases. Another I plan on trying
VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier
and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed

[spooney]

Any chance we could get some pictures of the gun while it is being fired? I want to see what this thing looks like.

[hubel458]

Will get a side view in next few weeks.
Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case. A nice long barrel we'd
have 2050 plus.Ed

[ajax]

I want one just for giggles.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Ed,

Awesome work fella.

Regards,

Dave

[proud2deviate]

I love this thread

Any thoughts towards making a smooth bore for shot? Or maybe something with straight rifling? (thinking about something like a shoulder-mounted Claymore )