12GA Rifle From HELL--

[hubel458]

Asked about using 900 gr saboted bullets in
3" plastic cases in regular barrels with
4759 or RL-15 and starter powder.
With bullets that heavy you'd have too
high of pressures with 4759
for plastic cases. Possibly could do
it with RL-15 and starter
powder in plastic, but only
in heavy barreled like NEF.

But the 600 gr Dixie is still the best for
most uses in plastic.

A NEF and brass RMC cases would handle 900 gr
Saboted bullet with RL-15 and starter powder. Start
at 80 gr Rl-15 and go up if cases don't expand to much to resize.Ed

[kcmarine]

You need to build the 10 gauge from hell. It might not be a bad idea to mount it on the back of a truck and make the gun a recoilless piece.

[hubel458]

I know how to do one if I had the time and
ambition to do it.Just put rims on 50 cal russian
brass the same way we did rims on bmg cases.
But cases are costly, and have Berdan primers and
would have to have adapter for bmg primer put in
So with cost, rim and an adapter plus the fireforming
is to much with a dozen other projects.And
the bigger 4bore project we are doing should
be a good step up anyway..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.

[hubel458]

I was looking at an 8ga single on
GB, that looked heavy enough to put
a barrel in for 12ga or 700HE. They
wanted much more than it cost
new.It was a real heavy
Spanish single. If I found an extra,
or the 8ga Tonolini double, I might
leave it 8ga, as I could make a few
cases by reworking 20mm Suzy brass,
can be done without adding rim,which would
be super strong cases like our 12ga FH.Ed

[hubel458]

Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed

[Kimber1911_06238]

nice varmint rifle

[atek3]

needs more Cowbell.

[hubel458]

Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition on first
bunch of loads with 600gr slugs.Ed

[hubel458]

Testing 2 3/4" cases, starting load 60 gr, full load
75 gr, with card, 1/4" wad, 600 gr. tested in Nef,
getting 1700 fps with 24' barrel. ignition perfect.
Never go below 60gr as VV N110 like the 4759
needs minimum for perfect ignition. Will do
3" plastic cases and MRC brass next..Ed

[RyanM]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I lost track of the thread, and I really don't want to read 14 pages! Do you take commissions for custom work? I don't have the money for anything now, but I have an idea that may be up your alley, for a few years from now.

[hubel458]

No, I'm not a licensed smith. I only do
my own stuff. I will research ideas for
people if possible in the big bore realm.Ed

[RyanM]

Darn, I was afraid of that. Well, the idea is still probably something you'd be interested in.

Basically, a 12 gauge pistol (from hell!) is legally a plain old pistol, as long as the following conditions are met:

1. It must be built on a receiver that left the factory without a shoulder stock, has never had a shoulder stock affixed, and was registered as a pistol.

2. It must have a fully rifled barrel or barrels.

3. It must be chambered in a caliber which is exempt from DD status, which classification is based on the cartridge and not the firearm. Like that crazy .600 NE T-C Encore is not a DD, because the cartridge is exempt. So regular 12 gauge would work.

It also must have a horizontal foregrip to avoid AOW/SBS status. Obviously, because of the ridiculous recoil, and the likely tendency for a double to, well, double, you'd want a large "lip" at the front of the foregrip to keep the hand from slipping in front of the barrel, but not so large that it could possibly be construed as a forgegrip itself.

This has been confirmed with a licensed Class II manufacturer, and I will be writing to the BATFE to make sure, before starting any such project. Still, the well-known .600 NE Encore is a good test case. Legal pistol receiver, rifled bore, non DD over-.50 cartridge.

The hardest part is getting a double-barreled shotgun with fully rifled bores. Or re-making the front of a pump-action magazine, if going that route.

Do you make barrels yourself? Just barrels can be made and sold without any gunsmithing license junk, I believe. Then I could see if any gun manufacturers will sell a virgin receiver with no stock or barrels...

This could be a way to bring howdah pistols to the masses. Well, to the masses with $xxxx to spend on a pistol.

[only1asterisk]

Ryan,

I fairly certain that even a rifled 12ga pistol will still be treated as an AOW.

David

[hubel458]

Ok as long as built on pistol frame. Get an
Encore registered as pistol then get a 12ga
Encore rifled 12ga barrelthat they
make for 12ga. Barrel manufacturerers as long
as they don't handle recievers don't need
ffl. Shaw, Bauska and others make 12ga rifled
barrels.Ed

[hubel458]

More VV N-110 testing that we got done.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed

[RyanM]

I fairly certain that even a rifled 12ga pistol will still be treated as an AOW.

No, because AOW shotguns fall into the "smoothbore pistol" category. If it's not smoothbore, it's not an AOW. It just cannot be manufactured from a long gun, thus it must be a virgin receiver.

Also, I really don't want a single shot. It has to be a double barrel.

[only1asterisk]

RyanM,

Your right, of course. I should have reread it. That is an interesting (although not terribly useful) gap there. You you still risk it being a declared non-sporting and a DD.


David

[hubel458]

If it gets too complicated you may find it
cheaper to pay tax. The rules don't say you
absolutely can't do it, as long as
gov gets its cut.Then get a double
and make a pistol.Ed.

[RyanM]

"Sporting purpose" is made on the basis of the cartridge, not the gun itself. All guns chambered in standard 12 gauge shotshells cannot be a destructive device (with the exception of non-exempt semi-automatic shotguns fed from either a detachable box magazine or a drum), just as all guns chambered in .600 NE are not destructive devices. Otherwise, the BATFE would be free to rule that putting a rifled slug barrel on a folding stock tactical shotgun would be illegal due to "sporting purpose."

Anyway, the main problem I have isn't the tax itself, but the paperwork, the waiting, and being on the ATF's NFA owner list. And I'm not sure if the county sheriff would sign. It would also be nice to have just on principle. A 12 gauge pistol that is regulated by Federal law exactly like a "normal" pistol.

[hubel458]

Hope you find someone making a double
barreled new pistol frame, but only thing
I've heard is the old Howdah pistols.Ed

[RyanM]

A virgin shotgun frame would work fine, as long as it leaves the factory without a shoulder stock attached, and is registered at the store as a pistol. That's how certain sawed-off pump-actions get AOW status rather than SBS, because they're legally a smoothbore pistol.

I'm sure at least one manufacturer of doubles would be willing to sell someone a frame only with no stock or barrels as a special order.

[hubel458]

How about someone checking on getting a manufacturers
license. I think it's only 150 bucks for three years.
Then buy 12ga doubles, convert them, pay gov excise tax,
give a new name and serial number. Is this doable?
It may be like the gunsmith who converts and makes
changes to lots of guns are now expected by gov to get
a mfgs license and pay the excise tax.Ed

[hubel458]

Testing soft buckhammer vs hard Dixie. Dixie 600 gr,
Buckhammer from factory hull 640gr with locked onwad,
out of Savage at 2300. Dixie went through 2 -1/8" steel
sheets and on through two more 3 feet away.Buckhammer
went through first two with same round hole, but made
a bunch of dents and one cockeyed hole 3 ft away.Ed

[hubel458]

Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases, 600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic. Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed