12GA Rifle From HELL--

[hubel458]

Tested 7383 with 730gr Dixie, 130gr gets 1650 plus fps
in NEF 24" bbl. Used 3" plastic cases. Same low expansion
as 7383 the 600gr loads and the 4759 lab tested loads.
Ignition perfect, no hesitation.Ed

[hubel458]

Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Work good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing ectractor to
damage rim. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

[esmith]

is that bigger than the .577 t-rex?

[hubel458]

Our 12GA FH long brass case is much more than Trex.
In Rob's gun max 23,000 ft lbs, In my Savage max
17,000 ft lbs, in plain old NEF slug gun break action
with chamber lengthened, 8300 ft lbs.Ed

[Lashlarue]

Just what I need for home protection, that way I get the bad guy, half dozen of my neighbors and maybe a couple from the subdivision down the road!

[hubel458]

Well it would stop the getaway car.
For home defense buckshot. That way it
won't go throuh to many walls. I tested a
load of buckshot. 15 single ought buckshot at
2000 plus fps.Much better than regular loads.Ed.

[hubel458]

Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed

[hubel458]

Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.
Finally a solid I really like, as it loads same as
lead, and soft jacket.Ed
__________________

[hubel458]

The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

[hubel458]

Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Waiting the
same time for a700 barrel for my other
big bore project also.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is a simple outline of what we've done with
our project we call the 12GA From Hell.
Some folks have asked us to do this.

A. The idea for this and the name was by
Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how
to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by
machining rims and the case to screw them on.
We ended up with case after mouth was expanded
that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.

B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,
a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.
It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.
Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at
3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at
4300 fps.

C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a
heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept
below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with
a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.
Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber
to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug
at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have
firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.

D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but
all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,
to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers
fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I
were using very well, no misfires.
So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,
our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with
smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,
that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,
and found out that our slow rifle powder loads
wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.

E. Which lead to much more research. We found that
slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a
fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,
using small primers. We also searched for rifle
or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,
that would fire with small primers and no starter,
that didn't up peak pressure to fast as
we increased loads to increase velocity.
We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.
These powders are easier to load for slugs without
the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up
the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase
loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum
thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads
under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759
loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less
than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but
we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer
slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested
loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy
barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether
with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, heavy barrels,
as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel
and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.

F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win
leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for
various heavy double shotguns, for various
O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to
design a big falling block for 12ga diameter cases
that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing
other powders, for use with small primers. We
plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for
the long 3,85" case, to test the whole range
of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.
We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can
take super velocities, we found brass slugs with
relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,
or copper jacketed, at same velocities.
This research and work is super great fun,
we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of
the muzzle blast with long case, and pics
of penetration tests. Ed

[hubel458]

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in big batch years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder. Ed

[hubel458]

Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed

[SpeedAKL]

The noise alone on that thing would have me sold!

[hubel458]

Yes it's the loudest gun in the state with
full loads. Echos like tank gun.Ed

[hubel458]

Finally able to make the
longer barrel improvement on
the 1887 12ga levergun.......
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed

[Bitswap]

Oh, mercy, please!

You wouldn't happen to have that in 10 guage would you? Somehow I'd think you'd need a bit more power to deep-six Godzilla!

I can't believe your firing this without a break and your shoulder is still in one piece.

By comparison, how many grains (320) does this equate to for a stick of dynamite?

[hubel458]

The Savage is heavy and a thick pad. Wt 25 lbs.
Even though that sounds like a lot of powder,
it is still just a propellant with speed inhibitors ,not
an explosive like nitro, tnt, C4, etc. It would
not have two percent the power of a pound
of nitro.When we go bigger we are working on
a 4ga/bore.Ed.

[Bitswap]

I guess your right, I load 225 grain in my bmg (imr 550), what's another 100? But that bullet is a lot of mass to move.... even with a 25 lb gun... they say firing a bmg without a break is insane. Still not convinced. If you can do it, even with inhibitors, chances are you got tons of muzzle flash and not optimizing the load. But I guess if your getting 3100 fps I'm all wet. A YouTube vid would be nice. I'd love to be wrong on this.

[hubel458]

Bitswap-- I get that velocity range in the Savage 12GA FH,
with a relatively light bullets for the caliber, 600-730 gr.
So recoil isn't ferocious or earth shaking.
In my 700HE wildcat in 34"test barrel(on a 300lb I beam),
I've shot 1000grainers that fast and when it is in a big action
later, I should add wt as recoil gets serious.Ed

[jestertoo]

Have you guys tried the browning bolt action 12ga?

[hubel458]

I'd like to do one with regular rifled barrel testing our
plastic case slug loads, as well as add a heavy barrel
and chamber it for our long case. But they are
priced about 3-5 times the Savage.Ed.

[Alphazulu6]

I will take one in guide gun length.

[hubel458]

With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug
in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,
with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.
Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.
Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier
rifled barrel on to test. Ed

[hubel458]

Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long
brass case with big primer.I have NEF
with extra hammer spring for big primer.
Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.
Would do little more, extractor needs
to be wider and set up positive.
Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.
Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.
That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to
2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go
light or heavy.Ed