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Old October 5, 2008, 11:05 PM   #576
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
Here is a picture of RG's jacketed 715gr slugs in various
loads.First are 2.75" and 3" factory foster slugs\ for
comparison. 3rd is jkt HP in 3.5" plastic case, 4th in a
3" brass RMC case. 5th in a 3.5" brass case with small
primer, 6th in our long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Top hairy load in long case in Savage, 2900..Ed

Ed Hubel.
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Old October 12, 2008, 10:02 PM   #577
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
Please notice in the picture above, cases loaded with
the 715 gr jacketed slugs, the 3rd and 4th ones.
They both have same 90gr of 4227, same number of
wads, shoot at 1700 in 24" NEF barrel. 3rd plastic is
3.5" case, the 4th brass is a 3" RMC. Both have shotgun
primers.The 5th longer case is a 3.5" strong
brass one I made from a PROP case, and when I put
in primer bushing, I set it up for shotgun primer. I
will test it with 4227 powder, 600gr and 715 gr slugs.
Also in a couple months Rob, who's idea the 12GA FH
was will be able to deliver the super strong 12GA FH
cases made from BMG brass. And the they will be
headstamped, all done by his CNC machine.Ed

Ed Hubel.
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Old October 14, 2008, 09:38 PM   #578
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
RIP on AR Big bore forum is doing 835 Mossy and 1400gr Darwin slugs.
A 14.5 pound Ulti-Mag. The hollow part of the butt is filled with about 5.5 lbs of lead shot and epoxy. Has 4X Sightron in QRW rings. Do 3.5" plastic hulls with the Darwin in it first. It balances on the trigger. Loading the magazine with 4 and one up the spout will add about 1.25 pounds if the 5 rounds are "Darwins," and move the balance point to the front of the triggerguard.
It is heavier rifled 24" barrel.

Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets
1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps,
using shotgun powder.

Ed Hubel.
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Old October 14, 2008, 10:56 PM   #579
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Somewhere.........
Posts: 2,614
nice shotgun, and nicer performance.
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Old October 31, 2008, 04:35 AM   #580
Join Date: October 31, 2008
Posts: 1
G'Day Ed
I have been following your tinkering from Downunder.
I have recently bought a Savage 210F and wish to use a 3" Brass casing to fire a ~300gr Sabot Copper round out too 400m approx. I'd be keen to get the Barrel dimensions from your 210 plus any input you would have on powder loading ect.

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Old October 19, 2010, 03:15 AM   #581
Join Date: June 21, 2005
Posts: 220
sorry to pull a necro thread but does anyone know if brass is still avaiable for this i cant do it now but i am definitly interested in doing this as my next project sometime around the early part of the year.

something about 600 grn slugs just puts a smile on my face
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Old December 27, 2010, 06:11 AM   #582
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
You can get 12ga FH cases from Rob on AR forum.
These are ones made from bmg cases. You can
also get turned cases from Rocky Mtn Ctg.

Got asked about the Taylor KO factor, some of our
cases.Max loads for my guns/cases combos.Ed

4bore in my falling block-- 1600gr at 2500 - 571 KO
700HE in my bolt gun----- 1000gr at 3200- 457 KO
12GA FH in my Savage----1000gr at 2500- 357 KO
585HE in my bolt gun------750gr at 2800-- 300 KO
577 trex comparison-------750gr at 2600--278 KO
700NE comparison --------1000gr at 2000- 295 KO

1st picture is the 4bore/4ga falling block we made,
and it has new idea, in that it is in one piece stock.
2nd picture is our 700HE long belted case in a
Vulcan bolt action.A 50bmg size action.
I'll get the info and pictures caught up on
our projects next couple weeks.Many pictures; and
project ideas and experiments we've done.Ed

Ed Hubel.
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Old December 27, 2010, 09:17 PM   #583
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
Here is side view of my rifled 12ga FH NEF that I made into a long
barrel by adding on a section. Handles a lot nicer. Thumbhole stock
is really great in handling recoil.Next picture is side view of the 4ga
falling block, in the building process. 3rd picture is 8ga we
did by boring out heavy barrel NEF 10ga. Others are doing this
8ga idea also, around the country. Ed

Ed Hubel.
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Old December 28, 2010, 08:35 PM   #584
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
Here is picture of Bret's 210 Savage 12ga FH. He has a spring and
cam operated, recoil reducing mechanism in the hollow stock.
He can get 500gr .500cal bullet in a BPI 12ga grey sabot
over 2700 fps in this gun. Gun has a Pacnor heavy rifled barrel.
2nd picture is of BRI sabots for loading. 3rd picture is of
a .504 cal hard lead slug in BPI sabot. 4th picture is a bolt
action 8ga guy on Practical Machinist forums built.
He uses the 8ga plastic cases, Neat job. 5th picture is
a rear view of 4bore falling block.Ed

Ed Hubel.
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Old December 28, 2010, 10:22 PM   #585
Join Date: August 31, 2007
Posts: 614
I'm going to go ahead and say it........Is this enough gun for wild boar?
My Guns:
Ruger MKIII 22/45(.22lr)
Smith & Wesson Model 4(.38S&W)
Remington 1100(12 gauge)
Mosin Nagant M44(7.62x54R)
Henry H001(.22lr)
Custom Remington 700LTR(.308Win)
Lee-Enfield MkIII (.303British)
Ruger 10/22 (.22lr)
"Ya know, I'd love to get me one of those police-riot-shotguns, something like a forty caliber. POW POW POW! Heh. But my wife won't let me have one."
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Old December 28, 2010, 10:34 PM   #586
Join Date: October 22, 2007
Posts: 1,217
I think safe to say that its enough gun for XXXX-L animals that have been extinct for millions of years...and whales.
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Old December 28, 2010, 10:36 PM   #587
Join Date: January 5, 2003
Location: In a well-equipped suburban bunker
Posts: 2,095
I'd write a dino-hunting SF story, but it's been done, by such greats as David Drake and L. Sprague deCamp.

FREEHOLD, Jan 04 from Baen Books
THE WEAPON, Aug 05 from Baen Books
CONFIRMED KILL, Sep 05 from HarperCollins
BETTER TO BEG FORGIVENESS..., Winter 07 from Baen Books


"The Finest battle implement ever devised." Ung the Caveman on the M1 Pointy Stick.
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Old December 29, 2010, 02:55 AM   #588
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
Oh it is a fun gun. Nothing fancy but super strong. That 1" 4bore is a hoot.
Guys stick their thumb in the end(unloaded) and heft the gun and they are like
kids with candy. Some shoot it with starting loads and it due to its 25 +lb
weight,stock and pad setup it shoots easy. In fact the muzzle doesn't
rise much with starting load, which is 770 gr ball at 2600. I've fired it with
1520 gr at 2300 and still shoots fairly easy.Here's pic of the muzzle end
with a 1600gr slug posed on exit.Max load I'll fire will be thiat slug
at 2700. I have to get a stock like one pictured that is full width
before I do the heavier loads.Don't want to crack stock.ED

Ed Hubel.

Last edited by hubel458; December 29, 2010 at 05:13 AM.
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Old January 1, 2011, 06:44 PM   #589
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
More on the 4bore, I found a few all plastic 4bore cases.
They're good for moderate loads like 760 gr ball at 2000 fps.
They are red cases in the first picture.
With the same idea of a falling block in one piece stock I found a
FBW Model L falling block and put my 585 HE in it, and another barrel
with 3.5" 20ga. In 2nd picture showing it in one piece stock.
My 585 belted case will fit in any action that a 505 Gibbs goes in.
3rd picture is the 585 with dies and reamers we have. 4th picture is
the Nef 585HE we made by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 barrel
into a NEF 10ga barrel stub on a SB2 frame. Also have 585HE in
Ruger 77, Enfields, BBKs, and the MRC PH, 5th picture.
We got the first MRC PH action put ou by the factory
and we set it up in my 585HE and another barrel with
my 700HE belted 3.25" case. 6th picture showing the PH with
700HE 3.25".7th picture showing my long and short
700HE. The short is 3.25" and long is 3.87"...Ed

Ed Hubel.

Last edited by hubel458; January 1, 2011 at 06:57 PM.
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Old January 4, 2011, 12:10 PM   #590
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
We've experimented with lots of different slug and
sabots.Here is picture of a variety, The green based are the
USS-S slug made in Greece we tested. They have a locked
on base and discarding petals and are front heavy for accurate
use in smoothbore 12ga.2nd picture is 8 and 10ga
cast slugs with hollow base.3rd is 8ga wadcup
with slug in it,10ga thick cup with 12ga Lyman and a12ga
light jacketed slug.4th is a 16ga slug in a 12ga wadcup
and same slug in a long 16ga FH case we made.5th is what a
12ga 600gr hardened Dixie slug at 2800 does to steel
plate on 2" of wood and another plate tight on back of wood.
plates are little less that 1/4"....Ed

Ed Hubel.
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Old January 11, 2011, 09:10 PM   #591
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
wood blocks up to 12" through.

20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through
6" block of wood easy/

Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800,
all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going.
In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad.
I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga
slugs to test later..These 8 and 10 ga slugs with
seal and wads locked on to them are for smooth bore
use. My 10ga and 8ga are smoothbores.

12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12"
wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
case in NEF.

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know. 750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it. About 33-3400.

Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed
Ed Hubel.

Last edited by hubel458; January 11, 2011 at 09:15 PM.
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Old January 15, 2011, 10:56 PM   #592
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
It works with a real magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
brass case. I used 239 Fed primers. Lighter slugs
only give squib loads.RE-50 Is a powder made like RE-17
with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
easier, to get the initial combustion started.

In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
to high of peak pressures with the heavy slugs or
cases expanding to stick.

Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
Got a big shop trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

Elsewhere it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed
Ed Hubel.
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Old January 20, 2011, 02:20 AM   #593
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs,
for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga.
The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs.

I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7
inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239.
Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the
barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga
Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus....

Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with
8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out
using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great
with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with
shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and the see starter powder loads
go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are
flabbergasted at the difference.ED
Ed Hubel.
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Old February 8, 2011, 11:45 PM   #594
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga
'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own
seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use
a BPGS and Flexseal over powder..And the gun
chambers/shoots regular 2 3/4" plastic case loads.Ed
Ed Hubel.
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Old February 9, 2011, 06:47 AM   #595
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
More info about the seal and cushion for 16ga
630 gr slug. Plastic seal works best.A clearer description
It is a BPGS type plastic seal, IE, a one way seal,
and a flex type cushion. One way seals best.The seal/cushion,
is the bottom part from 16ga wad cup.
Like bottom half of bottom trap commander 16ga wad.Ed
Ed Hubel.
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Old February 25, 2011, 11:31 PM   #596
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
Here is picture the CBC 20ga FH setup
by mono-blocking a heavy 20 ga barrel
into a CBC 12ga breech section.The 20 heavy
barrel is threaded into the mono-block made
by cutting off 12ga barrel. These CBC actions
are taller and wider than other break actions
and the locking lug block works better and
nicer than other break actions.Also shown
is 20ga 3.5" plastic and brass cases.
Second picture is PH action with port lengthened
for 585HSM, shown in action. I also have second
change barrel for 700HE long case for this action.
Imagine over 20,000 ft lbs in a PH, for 700HE.
Also shown behind is a PH with 700H 3.25"..Ed

Ed Hubel.
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Old March 5, 2011, 03:06 AM   #597
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 638
I want to thank the folks here for putting this thread
in the shotgun section, So much of our experimenting is
in the shotgun calibers. And this thread on THR right
is second highest in views of the 60 some forums
we have put the thread info out on.Thankyou for

Here are some 20ga slugs/sabots we rigged up.
I traded for whole box(hundreds) of 20ga Hammerhead
slugs, in the picture. They had pulled slugs
out of the locked on plastic base, so I glue them
back in so base stays for fair smoothbore accuracy.
And I also glued in various 458 bullets, as shown,
which fit tight in cup, up to 500gr. They discard
on impact. Fair accuracy at 50-70 yds. Less expensive
shooting as I have pile of hard lead 458 slugs.

Idea on 8ga FH. Looked at a TCR87 break action 10ga
and the breach mono-block can take a little bigger
barrel.If I find one I can afford(pricey) I'll do 8ga.
These are very strong actions, a little smaller version
of the action setup Colin put the 2bore in.
Just put in straight 8ga bull barrel like NEF Ultra.ED

Ed Hubel.
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Old March 5, 2011, 08:09 PM   #598
Dave McCracken
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Location: MD.
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Glad to help, Ed. I've followed this since inception, and it's glad I am range testing this fall on others.

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Old March 11, 2011, 01:30 AM   #599
Join Date: March 1, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
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Here is picture of the 4bore in a more finished look.
Second picture is closeup of cases and 1520 gr
hollowbase hard slugs. The 4bore is smooth bore so
hollowbase slugs are used. I set up gun with
smoothbore as that saved large amount of time and
money on the barrel. Ed

Ed Hubel.
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Old March 11, 2011, 02:29 AM   #600
Rail Driver
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Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 2,523
Wow. Just Wow. I want one. I'd have to sell a kidney on the black market, but I want one! (preferably with a recoiling barrel system similar to the Barret M82A1 and some kind of recoil reducing stock as well!)
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." -JFK

~Initial Success or Total Failure~
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