12GA Rifle From HELL--

[ugaarguy]

Ed, whenever you check back in I'd like to pick your brain. In your experience what is the strongest action of the commonly available pump guns? Getting into more detail, do the rotating locking bolts on the Benelli Novas, Winchester 1300 & SXP add significant strength? Or is something like the Ithaca 37 where the rear of the bolt locks into the solid steel receiver & the barrel also locks into the same solid steel receiver?

[hubel458]

The rotating locking lugs, locking into the barrel or
barrel extension are stronger. Maybe 50% or
more stronger than most regular pumps..
The ithaca 37 is a strong lock system,
only limitations is the thickness of the action.Ed

[ugaarguy]

Thanks for the info Ed.

[hubel458]

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.

[hubel458]

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.



Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.



Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

[hubel458]

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.



Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.



Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best heavy game hunting combination without having
extremely heavy slugs, which suffer for the speeds folks
want for longer ranges. And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED

[hubel458]

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.



Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.



Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........



Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed

[wolf695]

It looks awesome! Hows the dead on range? Duracoat it and scope it with a bipod,and she will really be bad!

[hubel458]

Which one you asking about.

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.





2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.





3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.





4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

[hubel458]

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.



Second is a paper case clad with
thin brass nearly to the top.



Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.



Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US.Ed

[hubel458]

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.



Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.



Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.



Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

[hubel458]

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.



Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.



Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.



Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

[Denko]

"We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,"


Indeed,you do some very interesting stuff.

[hubel458]

Thankyou, we will keep on keeping on.

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.



Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.



Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.



Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed

[hubel458]

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.





Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.



4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

[Dave McCracken]

I like that Husky,Ed. Thanks....

[Swing]

Holy cow! I want to party with whoever created this beast.

[hubel458]

Yes that old Husky is a super great gun.
One barrel smooth, other rifled.
I always liked the old open hammer guns.Ed

[hubel458]

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.







Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.



Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch rounds called the
"Lethal " and the " destructor".




Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, Ed. Is that 8 bore a rifle or a shotgun?

[hubel458]

I only have picture of it but I think it is rifled,
or at least Paradox rifles at the end of barrel.
I wish I owned it, Great looking gun.Ed

[Batta]

Did you have to put a crimp on that rifled slug?

[hubel458]

With brass 12ga cases I size cases so that slugs push in hard
for a lock in fit. Push in hard with a press. Reason is the
thick wall RMC bras is hard to crimp. For plastic cases
I roll crimp the plastic down on the slugs.Ed

[snakeman]

Holy crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Batta]

Ed, I have been playing around with some entry level 12ga. slug reloading. Mainly I mold my slugs and use a standard 12ga Win. AA wad. My mold is one of those lee (can't think of the name of the slug). I would love to play around with some sabot. Where would I go about looking for some? Is there load data readily available?