Quantcast
12GA Rifle From HELL-- - Page 33 - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Tools and Technologies > Shotguns

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 8, 2014, 05:50 PM   #801
wolf695
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Posts: 138
I still love it! and the rounds! cant wait to hear more about it!
wolf695 is offline  
Old January 27, 2014, 08:28 PM   #802
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
cheaper if you cast your own.




Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
In back some of the cases and die sets.



Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle. Setting up 4 more on Enfields
through the winter. Ed

__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Old February 14, 2014, 01:13 AM   #803
undeRGRound
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 15, 2013
Posts: 84
Subbing to this thread

Linked from HPFF
(HiPoint Firearms Forums)
Compelling Setups
You are a true pioneer, Ed!
undeRGRound is offline  
Old February 14, 2014, 01:45 AM   #804
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Thanks and we are having fun with 24ga ideas/research ..Finding lots of
possibilities that overlap very well into big bore areas from a
hardly used shotgun gauge.Ed
__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Old February 14, 2014, 10:10 AM   #805
undeRGRound
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 15, 2013
Posts: 84
I was wondering if you had an application chart or links to such...

So far the only shotguns I have are
Mossberg 590 12g
Mossberg 500 12g (JIC II)
old break action 20g, 18.5" (H&R?)
All smooth bore.

Not afraid to spend a few buck$ on a heavy barrel shotgun.

I'm interested in application/gauge/brass charts and a list of desirable brands
of shotguns for modding and using the heavy loads. I have gathered that the
20g would be compatible with the 585 stuff, thin sabot and so are the 12g's. (thick sabot)
My son is very interested in deer hunting, here in Indiana.
I approach all of my interests from a similar engineering viewpoint as presented
here in your postings. Top Notch!
undeRGRound is offline  
Old February 14, 2014, 01:02 PM   #806
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Thr Nef best value in heavy rifled barrels, 12 and 20 ga.
The only chart is what is in the threads, nothing complicated.

For 12ga use our sabot with a plastic seal and thin felt wad
and .575" Minie bullets. With 82gr of IMR 4759. that is all
3" case will hold.

20ga use BPI CSD wadcup and use the larger diameter 54 cal Minie bullets
like the Great plains 54 cal with 60 gr of 4759. 3" case & Wadcup has its
own seal.

I don't use a lot complicated wads and stuff that is needed with
smaller amounts of fast shotgun powder. And our loads get
better speed anyway with less case expansion.Ed
__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Old February 15, 2014, 01:22 PM   #807
undeRGRound
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 15, 2013
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by hubel458 View Post
For 12ga use our sabot with a plastic seal and thin felt wad
and .575" Minie bullets. With 82gr of IMR 4759. that is all
3" case will hold.

20ga use BPI CSD wadcup and use the larger diameter 54 cal Minie bullets
like the Great plains 54 cal with 60 gr of 4759. 3" case & Wadcup has its
own seal.
So these are for the shotguns I already have?

Thx, I will look into the NEF!
I see you mentioned it a LOT in the thread, now over 800 postings!
undeRGRound is offline  
Old February 15, 2014, 07:20 PM   #808
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
The loads will work for modern guns with slug heft barrels.
The term heft means heavy enough muzzles on modern guns, so that the
longer pressure curve of the slower powder won't split the
muzzle. No old steel or twist barrels.

Rule of measure is .910" muzzle min OD on 12ga
and .820" muzzle min OD on 20ga.

the muzzle on NEF 12ga Ultra
is much heavier but that helps with recoil and accuracy.Ed
__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Old February 22, 2014, 04:32 AM   #809
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,
But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.
Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case
and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
case can hold.

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
minimum specs so cases don't over expand.
In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED






Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc
__________________
Ed Hubel.

Last edited by hubel458; February 22, 2014 at 05:31 PM.
hubel458 is offline  
Old February 23, 2014, 02:22 AM   #810
pazsint
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 19, 2006
Posts: 13
Question 24 Ga slugging

Don't want to hi-jack thread...but was wondering what I can load in a standard
smoothbore shotgun barrel...I have an 24 Ga O/U and the 2 1/'2" brass hulls,..would like to hunt deer with it this fall.
Dan
pazsint is offline  
Old February 23, 2014, 03:13 AM   #811
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Your problem is lighter barrel. Our 24ga we show has real heavy barrel
we put in, so you have use light loads. Our barrels use .585" Minies
but your smooth barrels may be smaller.
But different 58 Minies go down to .575". There are .577", .578". etc.

You might check the lightest 58cal Minie bullets, like 350 to 440 gr
for fit in barrel and case, and load them with starting load 16gr of
Blue Dot, if extract easy go up a little,use seal/card and use wads
so there is no airspace.. Ed
__________________
Ed Hubel.

Last edited by hubel458; February 23, 2014 at 02:37 PM.
hubel458 is offline  
Old February 23, 2014, 07:18 AM   #812
Pete D.
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 13, 2010
Posts: 1,703
load

Hubel: I have been experimenting with BPI's Thug Slug and two of your loads. using Alliant Steel and SR4759. Using RMC brass.
Been using iron sights to test at just 50 yards.
just yesterday though (my post from the Thug Slug thread on this forum):
Quote:
Well, I did go and put a scope on the old 695. Bore sighted it, kinda, at home. Went to the range today. Did not have a lot of time. First shot at 50 yards was aimed at the center of a white bullseye. It hit low an right. I held on that hole. I shot four more shots.
RMC brass hulls, one ounce Thug Slug, 40 grs. Steel
Pete D. is offline  
Old February 23, 2014, 11:19 AM   #813
WestKentucky
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 1, 2014
Posts: 1,990
This looks pleasant yet painful. You only live once right...a busted shoulder wouldn't be that bad, would it?
WestKentucky is offline  
Old February 23, 2014, 02:33 PM   #814
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Thanks for compliment WK and thanks Pete for posting pic.

I read the other thread you posted in.

If the slug is less than 610gr try to get more 4759 in, it
should tighten the group. That rifled barrel will take the loads we had
lab tested safe with 90gr 4759 with 600gr, and any modern
pump or auto with slug bbls will do that also. Greg and others who told
me about 4759 years ago used pumps and autos.

If the slug is heavier you can still go like 85gr 4759 for 700 gr slug.

Same applies to Steel powder, if less than 600gr go to 45gr .
If slug less than 500gr go to 50gr steelEd
__________________
Ed Hubel.

Last edited by hubel458; February 23, 2014 at 02:40 PM.
hubel458 is offline  
Old February 24, 2014, 11:22 AM   #815
Pete D.
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 13, 2010
Posts: 1,703
thanks

Hubel: Thanks for the advice and all of your testing. I will try 45 grains of Steel next. One ounce = 437.5 grains...so I can work up to 50 of Steel. About 4759.....I am using 75 grains now....more is going to push that slug up more in the case. The pic shows one now....how much more can I go, I wonder?
I don't know how much tighter the group will get at 50 yards...there are four slugs through that lower hole. Once I get the scope centered, I will move out to 100 yards and use a proper rest for the gun.
I am much liking that Thug Slug.

Pete

Last edited by Pete D.; February 24, 2014 at 11:29 AM.
Pete D. is offline  
Old February 24, 2014, 12:35 PM   #816
anothernewb
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 21, 2012
Location: West Central MN
Posts: 651
Awesome.

and

Ouch.
anothernewb is offline  
Old March 13, 2014, 08:02 PM   #817
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
the skirts from deforming, or wads getting pushed into
the hollow base. I found that dense dow foam works
good, I was using glue gun, but the dense foam is easier, cut
plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make it a
tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug
with foam pressed into the base..



How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .



Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
slightly longer stroke.Ed

__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Old April 23, 2014, 01:57 PM   #818
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
to match 577NE power.



Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.



Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Old April 24, 2014, 02:58 AM   #819
pazsint
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 19, 2006
Posts: 13
Question 58 cal mininie as slugs in 24 ga shotgun

Hubel.... I have an O/U 24 ga American Silver II, and been thinking about an 58 cal minnie ball in the 2 1/2" chedite plastic for a close range deer load.
Questions ...>
do you think I could do this safely with my thin tube barrels ? I have some 505 gr slugs from a 58 cal Zouave....how would do I check safe use fit of these or any other minnie in my tubes..? would I only shoot out of the modified barrel ?
Is there any better shaped slug for a smooth bore to get some accuracy?
Anyone else done this ?
pazsint is offline  
Old April 24, 2014, 12:59 PM   #820
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Should use the lightest 58cal minie you can find, 350-400gr,
probably the .575 inch work best in modified barrel.
And 16gr blue dot starting load. Use seals and wads so no
airspace, you will only know how accurate it is when you
try it. You usually find round nose minies most accurate
in a smooth barrel.Ed
__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Old July 11, 2014, 04:06 PM   #821
wolf695
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Posts: 138
Nice job! send me a message, I got some more Ideas for you to try out!
wolf695 is offline  
Old August 15, 2014, 04:31 AM   #822
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.



Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit
in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give
good resistance for good ignition.



Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585
will go about mach 4.



Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Old September 8, 2014, 06:11 AM   #823
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed




I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Old October 25, 2014, 11:11 AM   #824
hubel458
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 2, 2003
Location: Brinton,Mich.
Posts: 585
Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .



Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.



I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.


Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
__________________
Ed Hubel.
hubel458 is offline  
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.