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Old June 27, 2006, 01:36 AM   #1
Flyboy73
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Whats a AR15 drop in auto safety sear

Saw a ad in the current shotgun news for a drop in AR15 auto safety sear.

I have a bushmaster AR, but i have no idea what that is for?

Can some enlighten me.

Brion
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Old June 27, 2006, 02:10 AM   #2
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Full auto M16s have slightly different sears due to being select fire.

If you drilled some holes and put some other parts in with it, that would make your gun full auto. It is fairly complex and doing the conversion is considered "making" a machine gun. There are also sears that "drop in" and are thus considered machine guns themselves.

The making route is no longer allowed since 1986 and the drop in auto sear is going to run you a ton of money and paperwork. You get ATF preapproval, pay a 200 dollar tax, etc.
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Old June 27, 2006, 02:11 AM   #3
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Illegal and as many suspect, probably a trap. It is a conversion device to make your gun full auto, which is illegal unless you are a 02/07 manufacturer. It has been since 1986.

I would steer clear.
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Old June 27, 2006, 02:21 AM   #4
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Absolutely do not buy this item.
If you don't know what one is, then you can not legally own it.


However, Pvt. Pyle, please enlighten me on this subject. Couldn't this be purchased as a dealer sample (obviously, if you were an NFA dealer) ?
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Old June 27, 2006, 02:37 AM   #5
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If it has actually been made on a form 1, then yes, an SOT could buy it with a demo letter on a form 3. But trying to buy one and then register it as a post 86 sample would be a felony. If the seller could produce a form 1 then it might be safe.

Some people will tell you owning just the sear is not a crime, yet the ATF has succesfully prosecuted people for buying them.

As an SOT, we just make our own. No demo letter, no hassle.
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Old June 27, 2006, 11:32 AM   #6
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You can legally buy and own that sear, you just can't own an AR15 if you do.
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Old June 27, 2006, 12:24 PM   #7
PvtPyle
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Quote:
You can legally buy and own that sear, you just can't own an AR15 if you do.
No, you can not. You would be in possession of an illegal machinegun. The same thing applies to H&K trigger packs that are select fire as was covered in the legal section of Small Arms Review a few months ago.

From the ATF web page:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m1

(M1) The types of firearms that must be registered in [Back]

Some examples of the types of firearms that must be registered are:

Machine guns;

The frames or receivers of machine guns;

Any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting weapons into machine guns;

Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for converting a weapon into a machine gun; See this part here? This means an auto sear and the mentioned trigger packs. They have already successfully prosecuted people for owning just these parts. The auto sear is designed soley for the purpose of converting the weapon to full auto.

Any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;

Silencers and any part designed and intended for fabricating a silencer;

Short-barreled rifles;

Short-barreled shotguns;

Destructive devices; and,

"Any other weapon."

A few examples of destructive devices are:

Molotov cocktails;

Anti-tank guns (over caliber .50);

Bazookas; and,

Mortars.

A few examples of "any other weapon" are:

H&R Handyguns;

Ithaca Auto-Burglar guns;

Cane guns; and,

Gadget-type firearms and "pen" guns which fire a projectile by the action of an explosive.

[26 U.S.C. 5845]


Then there is this:

(M17) Are parts which would convert a firearm into an NFA firearm subject to registration? [Back]

Yes. Examples:

An M-2 conversion kit (See QuestionM29);

Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively to convert a weapon into a machine gun. (See Question M1.) This means that the auto sears need to be registered. Period. If they are not, they are controban.


And there is this:

(M29) What is a "conversion kit?" [Back]

A conversion kit is any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun. A conversion kit is a machine gun. for purposes of the NFA. (See Question M17.)

[26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11]


So someone please explain to me, and show evidence that these can be lawfully purchased and transfered to an individual without paying any taxes or being subject to the 86 ban on the manufacture and civilian possession of post 86 production machineguns and the parts to convert semi auto weapons to machineguns.
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Old June 27, 2006, 12:39 PM   #8
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Then how could they possibly sell them if they are illegal to own??? ATF sting, I highly doubt it.
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Old June 27, 2006, 03:01 PM   #9
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You know what, you must be right. None of the evidence listed above could or should prohibit them from selling them, and it isn't even remorely possible that it could be a sting of any type. I dont mean to be an ass, but people do illegal things all the time, and talk about it or publicise it.

That add has been running for over a decade in SGN, who knows. And since he is only there from 8-11 at night, we will have to wait until then to find out. But they evidence listed above from the ATf web site, and the fact they have convictions for this would not lend me to believe that this is something a freedom loving person would want to be involved with. But if you think it is cool and legal, go ahead and order one.
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Old June 27, 2006, 03:08 PM   #10
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They sell because under narrow circumstances they are legal to own. As well, BATFE allows them to stay in business as this company if one of ATF's trained dogs that roll over on command.
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Old June 27, 2006, 03:36 PM   #11
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A lot of NFA stuff advertised is Class III Dealer or Title II
manufacturer only, and they get irritated with unlicensed
enquirers.

The acronym for drop in auto sear is DIAS. Buenos DIAS.
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Old June 27, 2006, 03:47 PM   #12
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Never said I was interested in ordering one. I was talking about the legality of owning one. I have no use for such an item myself.
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Old June 27, 2006, 03:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
They sell because under narrow circumstances they are legal to own. As well, BATFE allows them to stay in business as this company if one of ATF's trained dogs that roll over on command.
What are the 'narrow circumstances by which this item can be sold? I presume it has something to do with:

Quote:
If it has actually been made on a form 1, then yes, an SOT could buy it with a demo letter on a form 3.
but that sentence made absolutely ZERO sense to me. Is there some layman's explanation to all this available somewhere?
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Old June 27, 2006, 04:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Then how could they possibly sell them if they are illegal to own???
Possibly the same way illegal drugs are sold.
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Old June 27, 2006, 04:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
If it has actually been made on a form 1, then yes, an SOT could buy it with a demo letter on a form 3.

In laymens terms:

There are different forms you fill out when dealing with NFA weapons. For example, if you were to buy a suppresor from a dealer, you would fill out a form 4. A form 1 is used for the creation of a new post-86 NFA item by a licensed manufacturer (who is an SOT). An SOT is a Special Occupational Taxpayer, which means somebody who can deal in post '86 NFA items, build, and sell them to law enforcement or the military. A form 3 is what law enforcement fills out when they want to get a post-86 demo item.

I belive that is correct, but NFA laws make my brain hurt and is why it is reallly nice to have PvtPyle around.
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Old June 27, 2006, 04:08 PM   #16
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A DIAS drop in auto sear is a machinegun per se.
If it was legally made and registered on a Form 1 before May 1986
it is legal to transfer ownership on a Form 4.
But the DIAS is itself the machinegun, not the AR it is dropped into.
The DIAS is the registered NFA item, the gun it is dropped in does
not need to be on the NFA registry, bcause it is just a rifle,
and is not a machinegun itself..
But there are complications under certain circumstances.

If you read Franz Kafka and Lewis Carroll. it helps you understand NFA.
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Old June 27, 2006, 04:10 PM   #17
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SOT special occupational taxpayer, please use Form 3.
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Old June 27, 2006, 04:29 PM   #18
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Carl, Kafka and Carrol, while dropping acid...
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Old June 27, 2006, 04:54 PM   #19
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Thanks, Correia. One more question - what is a "post-86 demo item"? Is it any FA bits made after 1986, or is a subset of that class of item?
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Old June 27, 2006, 05:00 PM   #20
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Pre 1986 items are legally ownable and can be sold (transfered through a dealer) to other regular people. Post 1986 machine guns, and things that are considered machine guns can only be sold to law enforcement agencies or the military.

Now suppresors and short barreled weapons are different. Though they are still controlled, you can still make new ones since 1986.
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Old June 27, 2006, 05:11 PM   #21
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post-86 demo item
Is a post 1986 machinegun that is owned by a dealer
for demonstration to law enforcment or government agencies,
A post-86 demo item can only be sold to a NFA dealer or
NFA manufacturer. It is a narrowly defined subset of NFA.
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Old June 27, 2006, 05:17 PM   #22
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Thanks, guys - those were the dots I wasn't yet connecting.
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Old June 27, 2006, 05:23 PM   #23
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So to close out my understanding of the DIAS:
  • If it's a pre-'86 DIAS, then us'n serfs can own it if we fill out the appropriate paperwork and use a special FFL holder (SOT) to get it to us
  • If it's a post-'86 DIAS, then only a SOT (Class 3 FFL holder?) could possess such a thing and could not actually resell/transfer it to anyone other than another SOT type entity
Is this correct?
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Old June 27, 2006, 05:24 PM   #24
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This is where Larry's head explodes.

There are actually two classes of pre-May 1986 machineguns. Fully transferable (which means any law abiding citizen in a free state can buy them) and pre-86 dealers samples. Those can be purchased by only by dealers but can be kept when you surrender your license.

Then as stated, everything made after May 1986 is a post 86 dealers sample. That means any dealer or SOT can purchase them. But the caviat to that is they need a demo request letter from a LEO or military unit in order for the dealer to get it transfered to them. Now as an SOT, I can build anything we want machinegun wise, but to get one that is built already, I have to get a letter.

There are some items that carry both a machinegun tax stamp and a destructive device tax stamp, like the MK-19. While the MK-19 is a DD and should be fully transferable, it is full auto so there is the machinegun tax as well. And since there are only one or two that made the registry before May 86, they are fairly spendy. The ammo will run you about $175 a shot for HEDP round, oh and they have a $200 DD tax on each one of those as well.

But back on topic, buying one of these is asking to ge sent to pound me in the 4th POC prison. They can nad have sent people to jail for owning just this piece of metal. Heck, they say the HOLE, thats right, the empty space, devoid of solid material on the H&K receiver where the swing down lower goes is a machinegun.

I am still waiting for someone to show me where any of the pieces I sited above can NOT apply to this item.....
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Old June 27, 2006, 05:32 PM   #25
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