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Old July 30, 2015, 01:05 PM   #1
W.E.G.
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trickled vs. thrown - data?

I'm studying the trickled vs. thrown subject.

I know many of you trickle every single charge.

Some of you trickle only your long-range loads.

I get it, that it is completely logical that there will be more consistency in the weight of powder charges if each one of them is weighed separately.

Here's what I really want to know:
How much difference does it really make?

Has anybody here thrown a batch of powder charges to specified weight, and then trickled a batch to that same weight, and then actually chronographed the two batches for the purpose of comparing the RANGES of velocity for each round of each batch?

Did you actually obtain a more narrow range of velocity between the trickled batch and the thrown batch?

If so, how much difference was there?
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Old July 30, 2015, 01:58 PM   #2
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It all depends on the powder being used. Ball powders meter very accurately so 0.1gr is very consistent. Then you move to stick powders 1.0 gr would be considered good. Some powders are sensitive to this some not. I trickle all my stick powders but when I use a ball powder I just set up the dispenser to deliver what I want.
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Old July 30, 2015, 02:55 PM   #3
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No such thing as trickled vs. thrown data?
Trickling powder tends to be a match grade rifle thing vs a handgun thing though. With rifle 1/10th grain can make a difference. Not so much with hand gun.
However, a great deal depends on what tool you have for throwing power into a pistol cartridge. If it won't do so consistently, um, throw it away. Have a hand held thrower that works well myself. Don't remember the brand or where or when I bought it though.
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Old July 30, 2015, 03:42 PM   #4
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Benchrest winners and record setters throw charges direct from measures that meter to about a 2/10ths grain spread. That's what the best measures do. Sierra Bullets meters powders into their full length sized and primed cases to a 3/10ths grain spread. Both shoot their best bullets into 1/2 MOA through 300 yards; that's as good as it gets. Those few, 5-shot groups around 1/100th MOA are more luck than anything else. Groups can't get any smaller than zero. There's no limit to how big they can be.

The load developed for Sierra's new 30 caliber 155-gr. Palma bullet back in 1991 shot about 1/2 MOA at 600 yards in several match rifles from around the world. Charge weights on the 30 to 40 I checked across several lots had a 3/10ths grain spread of IMR4895. Test loads for that bullet using a ball powder and checked by a ballistic lab had lowest charge weight spread as well as muzzle velocity spread. It also shot the worst for long range accuracy.

For ranges past 300 yards, a 2/10ths grain spread is good up to 600 yards. Further out sometimes needs a 1/10th grain spread. If your stuff doesn't shoot any better than 1 MOA at 600 at worst, you may not tell the difference in a 2/10ths change in powder charge.

Any data derived from groups with less than 20 shots each is not all that statistically significant. Doesn't matter how emotionally significant it is, if best accuracy is the objective. Virtually everyone is better off with stick powder if accuracy's the game at hand.
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Old July 30, 2015, 05:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Test loads for that bullet using a ball powder and checked by a ballistic lab had lowest charge weight spread as well as muzzle velocity spread. It also shot the worst for long range accuracy.
Just when you think you've solved all the relations of the planets...

Man...

That and this little gem from http://oostalk.ning.com/profiles/blo...-does-it-mean:
Quote:
In his book Sight Alignment, Trigger Control, and the Big Lie, Jim Owens repeats the gospel that for best accuracy at 600 yards, we should only shoot cartridges with less than 0.003"-0.006" runout. Then he relates the story where he grabbed a box of ammo, went to the range, and shot a great score, only to look at the box and see it was the cartridges with large runout values he'd been saving back for the year. Oops.
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Old July 30, 2015, 05:46 PM   #6
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Then there's the guy who holds the benchrest record for 5 shots at 100 yards; .0077". He holds none of the aggregate records at 100 yards to 300 yards comprising several 5- or 10-shot groups to get the average extreme spread.

How much luck is that?
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Old July 30, 2015, 07:28 PM   #7
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Weighed or thrown charges

: NBRSA Nationals-Weighed or thrown charges http://173.236.14.55/showthread.php?...thrown-charges and more. http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...hrowing-powder This wannabe BR shooter, using stick IMR powder, is weighting each charge.
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Old July 30, 2015, 08:57 PM   #8
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trickled vs. thrown

I had a double charge go off in my hands with my 45 . Ever since then I trickle to the exact charge I want . It slows down the reloading but I AM NOT IN IT FOR SPEED . I use the Lyman Accu touch 2000 digital scale . Your load is only as accurate as your scale . I really like this one , very simple to calibrate . If I'm shooting 38 special with 4.5 grs. of HP-38 , I am confident that every round has 4.5 grs.
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Old July 30, 2015, 09:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
I had a double charge...
Chief, for reference are you runing a progressive, or a single stage ?

If a single stage, are you loading/seating complete rounds singly?
...or dropping powder into a full loading block of cases before seating
any bullets ?

~~~~~~~~~~
For calibration: Over many, many decades I weighed every charge,
then I discovered Harrells* powder measures. Over the last half-dozen
years I've almost quit using the ChargeMaster except as a check scale,
and now throw almost everything -- including for my -MOA rifles like
the Swift and the Grendel -- even with stick powders as 4895, 4350, etc.

I run complete loading phases one-at-a-time:
- All the sizing
- All the expanding
- All the priming
- All the powder...
... before any seating

Before seating I inspect the entire block angled under a light -- one row
at a time -- for equal powder levels. For really low-case-capacity pistol
powders, I'll actually lay the loading block down and insert a " dowel
into each case using a pencil mark reference. (Takes 60-seconds for an
entire block).

So far, those Harrells measures (Schutzen for the pistols/.223 etc) and Culver
for the big boys and black powder) have proven themselves to provide less
than 0.1gr even with flake powders like Unique. The big boys with large
caseloads of "crunchy" extruded may on rare occasion exceed that -- but the
rifles never seem to notice.)

Last edited by MEHavey; July 30, 2015 at 09:24 PM.
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Old July 30, 2015, 09:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B. View Post
Benchrest winners and record setters throw charges direct from measures ,,,
I acknowledge and admire your credentials and do not disagree with anything you posted, but citing sources would help the O.P. do his own research and gain a deeper understanding of the issues involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B. View Post
The load developed for Sierra's new 30 caliber 155-gr. Palma bullet back in 1991 shot about 1/2 MOA at 600 yards in several match rifles from around the world. Charge weights on the 30 to 40 I checked across several lots had a 3/10ths grain spread of IMR4895.
3/10 grain out of what charge weight? Where that variation is, percentage-wise, is important. Where that charge weight is in terms of the propellant's performance envelope is even more important. A powder burning in the most stable part of its pressure/temperature band will deliver the most consistent performance. (That is axiomatic)

Respectfully, Lost Sheep
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Old July 30, 2015, 10:18 PM   #11
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How much difference does it really make?

This article may answer your question. Interesting read. I picked up a few "knowledge nuggets" from it.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspa...ons/4529817134
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Old July 30, 2015, 10:28 PM   #12
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This is a good read on the subject of throwing powder charges.

The range I shoot at on a regular basis is Kelbly's Range which is home to the Super Shoot in benchrest competition. While the benchrest world is not my thing I really enjoy the range and the more serious shooters one encounters there. This is not a place where you empty a 20 or 30 round magazine in a few seconds. These guys show up with maybe 12 to 20 cases and reload on the range. They set their Harrell's Precision powder throw up along with a press and they load away, right there beside their shooting position. As the article I linked to states, these guys don't care the measured weight of a powder throw, they want precision (high measure of repeatability). They use a scale for initial setup and from that point on know where to set the micrometer and that is all they need to know. If they setup to throw 25.3 grains of VV N-133 all they care about is consistently throwing the same charge round after round. Actually it could be 25.0 or 25.2 grans as long as each charge weighs the same. Half of them or more likely couldn't tell you what the charge weight actually is in grains, they darn sure know how to set the micrometer on that Harrell's Precision Classic Culver Measure though.

Just My Take....
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Old July 30, 2015, 10:40 PM   #13
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trickle vs. thrown

MEHavey , I am using a Lee 4 hole turret press with an auto disk powder dispenser .
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Old July 30, 2015, 11:13 PM   #14
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It isn't a huge sample, but I was recently testing the powder measure on my Hornady LNL AP and threw and weighed 10 charges.

The S.D. for the charges was .0035grs...this was with BE-86...YMMV
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Old Yesterday, 08:55 AM   #15
Bart B.
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Lost Sheep's comment:
Quote:
3/10 grain out of what charge weight? Where that variation is, percentage-wise, is important. Where that charge weight is in terms of the propellant's performance envelope is even more important. A powder burning in the most stable part of its pressure/temperature band will deliver the most consistent performance. (That is axiomatic)
3/10ths grain spread for an average charge weight of 45.3 grains of IMR4895. A lot of info on powder measures accuracy and use is on the 6mmbr web site; www.6mmbr.com.

Your reference to a powder's pressure/temperature band is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. I don't think any powder company list it in their load data, do they? I don't think its something that most people know about, use, nor understand or even heard of; it ain't axiomatic to me.

So, to reference your penchant for providing links, provide one that clearly explains a powder's pressure/temperature band as well as a table listing powders' numbers for that. I'd like to know what it's all about.

And also a link to some place where reloaders can buy a temperature probe to measure their powder burn temperature to ensure it's within specs. Reloaders can buy piezo strain gauge systems to measure their loads' pressures.
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Old Yesterday, 10:30 AM   #16
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Basically I "trickle" from a scoop. If the core issue you're talking about is one of repeatability, I would have to say that trickling is the most accurate, but in my case it has to be done from a scoop so I can re-throw the last half grain a couple times to insure proper scale movement. Re-throwing to confirm the weight will get me to within just a few kernels of ball powder quite consistently, but this system wouldn't be very practical with a conventional trickler. But then, I use an old ohaus scale that's not graduated in grains. Modern reloading scales might be a different story.
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Old Yesterday, 10:42 AM   #17
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Quote:
Benchrest winners and record setters throw charges direct from measures that meter to about a 2/10ths grain spread.
This guy uses a Promeheus powder measure that is accurate to a single kernel of powder.

Quote:
David Tubb is arguably the best, and winningest, competitive rifleman in history. He has won (to date) a record eleven NRA National High Power Rifle Championship titles at Camp Perry, Ohio. That's four more than next best. In addition, David is an NRA Silhouette Rifle legend, having won nearly 30 open, individual National Championship titles in all four rifle categories. David has also won seven Sportsmen's Team Challenge Championships along with six NRA Long Range Rifle (600-1000 yd.) National Championships,
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Old Yesterday, 10:45 AM   #18
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I throw mine then trickle the rest. While I don't have the benchrest experience of long range shooting, I believe in starting good habits first. Now my handgun ammo, that's a different story.
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Old Yesterday, 10:45 AM   #19
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Agree with MEhavey that the best way to prevent double charges is to load in a loading block, then inspect with bright light.

For the OP. Precise measurement of charge weight is not primarily done to achieve consistency in velocity. It is done to achieve consistency in ACCURACY. This can be done without ever using a chrono.
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Old Yesterday, 10:58 AM   #20
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Jmorris, I've shot many a match with David Tubb; known him since the middle 1960's. His rifles shoot his ammo no more accurate than those of several others who don't weigh charges to the weight of a piece of powder. They all test their rifles and ammo in machine rests like this one:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127872...7594303093714/

Here's his page on what it shoots:

https://www.davidtubb.com/index.php?...download_id=23

All the best high power match rifles shoot about 1/2 MOA at 600 yards. Bob Jensen used his machine rest (same as Tubbs and a dozen or so others) testing Sierra's new 155-gr. Palma bullet in new Winchester unprepped cases metered to 3/10ths grain charge weights of IMR4895 putting 20 shots inside 2.7 inches from a wood stocked Win. 70 barreled action. A picture of it was in a fall 1991 issue of Handloader Magazine.

David Tubb often does aim his hand held rifles more precisely than others. A better marksman will shoot better scores with good stuff than a lesser one with outstanding stuff. That's been proved so darned many times.

Anyone wanting to see the real difference between zero and 2/10ths grain spread of powder charges for ranges up to 300 yards in their stuff should load 20 of each then test them. Then you'll see if it is worth the effort.
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Old Yesterday, 11:04 AM   #21
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Single stage all loads here. For hunting or target loads in rifles I throw then finish with a trickler. (An old Herters circa 1968). For pistol competition its an RCBS little dandy with rotor.

All loads are then viewed in the block under the shop light. I've seen tooooo many shooters in SASS, IDPA, USPSA have squibs only to find out they used a progressive and not checked to make sure there was powder in every case. The old saying "haste makes waste!" I am not anti-progressivel
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Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM   #22
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The Dillon 650 with a powder check die prevents double charges of no charge.

I load my 6MM varmint loads on it, and they shoot 5/8 inch, five shot groups at TWO HUNDRED yards using Sierra 80 grain Blitz and WW-760.
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Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Anyone wanting to see the real difference between zero and 2/10ths grain spread of powder charges for ranges up to...
What I generally do is find a powder that meters well enough that the charges don't vary that much. Yeah, I don't use a lot of IMR powders.
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 PM   #24
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Some people use chronographs to test their ammo's velocities. Here's what happens with a given rifle and load across three methods of testing:

Traditional hand holding the rifle against ones shoulder as it rests atop something on a bench; larger spreads in both velocity and standard deviation. Average velocity compared to the other two.

Free recoil with the rifle resting on well lubed pads so it moves back unrestricted; standard bench rest way for best accuracy; low spread in velocity and standard deviation, often 1/2 to 1/3 of what the above popular way produces. Velocity's the lowest average of all.

Fixed mount barreled action that stays in place when fired; highest average muzzle velocity and lowest standard deviation. This is SAAMI spec and what some ammo makers use. It's best to test for muzzle velocity numbers as it eliminates all the other variables.
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Old Yesterday, 02:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
find a powder that meters well enough that the charges don't vary that much. ..
A course extruded powder bounces into the canoe like gerbil food and doesn't need a lot of re-throwing, though. If I just needed to mass produce ammo quickly I'd settle for a powder that meters easily, but gerbil food is good if you' want to double check charge weight quickly on an electronic scale.
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