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Old January 14, 2015, 08:51 PM   #1
ungerstruck
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anti stuck case shell holder

Hello everyone first time ever posting anything so please bear with me. So I know I'm not the only one that has ever had a stuck shell in a die while FL sizing or while using a Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die or any other die, and I know using the proper lube/lube amount has a lot to do with it, but I have made a shell holder that holds the shell only 0.125 from the face of the shell just like a RCBS shell holder and it's designed to be used in any press that accepts a RCBS shell holder but the down fall is that it is an additional 0.3" taller so you would have a bit less leverage and it takes approximately 5-8 seconds to change shells due to the design of it. Although because of the way it is holding the shell you no longer have to worry about taring the back of the case rim off and there for be able to pull on the shell 3-5 times harder with out any damage to the sell what so ever would any one be interested in something like this. if anyone would like a better explanation I would be more than happy to try and explain it better.
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Old January 14, 2015, 08:55 PM   #2
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I ask a mod to move to reloading forum where reloaders may see it.

rc
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Old January 14, 2015, 09:53 PM   #3
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Welcome to "The High Road"

Well, first and foremost, any time a reloader experiences a stuck case, it's safe to say the root cause, the only cause really, is they didn't apply the lube correctly. Either applying it in the wrong places, failing to use it as per instructions, or it was an incorrectly prepared home brew. I've been reloading for better than 3 deacdes and have never had a single stuck case.

I can't imagine for the life of me how a shell holder will eliminate stuck cases. In addition, a shell holder that prevents any portion of the brass from fully entering the die, is going to prevent the brass from being FL resized. How would the lower portion of the brass get resized, or the shoulders get bumped back other wise? Even preventing as little as .010" of FL sizing is going to interfere with proper resizing, .030" is significant, and is going to prevent resing of both the shoulder, and the body.

Unless I'm missing something in you OP, this is how it would play out. Clarify your invention, but this time add some punctuation please.

GS
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Old January 14, 2015, 10:24 PM   #4
ungerstruck
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Sorry I may have explained it wrong, yes it is longer over all but the same amount of shell is exiting the shell holder as a normal holder so it is used the same way for any type of resizing. also as far as stuck cases go when they do become stuck there is always 2 flat spots where a RCBS shell holder pulls on and tears off when pulling the shell out of a die, this shell holder I have made pulls uniformly all around a shell by the rim and allows you to put much greater force on a shell with out any damage to it. So you could have greater tolerances for your lubing process.

PS. When FL resizing I also have never had a stuck case only when using my belted magnum collet resizing die

PPS. I have noticed there are many places you can send your die into to remove a stuck case and a few stuck case kits out there plus a few threads on it so I know some other people are also having somewhat of the same problem.

please reply I appreciate your and any input thanks.
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Old January 14, 2015, 10:56 PM   #5
barnbwt
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"I've been reloading for better than 3 deacdes and have never had a single stuck case."

Mwah-hah-hah. My. Very. First. Case. Totally bound up in there*, completely ticked me off. In that case, I fully believe it was the presence of packing grease or something in the die, since I changed absolutely nothing about my case prep or lubing, and had no subsequent issues (this was 308, btw). I still have nightmares about the hassle it caused, so I tend to favor carbide dies that seem to stick a lot less.

TCB

*in my case, the direct application of some heat and force got things broken loose, I'm sure that's not a fix for everyone, though. Case was a total bugger, but once knocked out and relubed, slid right back into the die without any resistance; it really and truly was stuck in there with nothing but friction
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Old January 14, 2015, 11:08 PM   #6
rcmodel
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This sounds like an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem.

1. I haven't stuck a case in a die since I stopped using sloppy Herters shell holders that didn't fit in 1970.
RCBS and other quality shell holders fit the rim 180 degrees around the rim and don't slip off in two places.

2. Lack of lube will not only result stuck cases, but also in brass galling inside the die and scratching every case that goes in it afterward.

So it is imperative you lube the cases correctly in the first place.

I have never used the belted mag collet die you are referring too.

But how the heck does a case get stuck in a collet after the collet releases it anyway??

rc
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Old January 14, 2015, 11:45 PM   #7
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remodel

1. I dont know if you have ever used a collet before as far as holding a drill bit or endmill but when it gets pressed into the tapered hole it binds a bit to grab the tool and when you loosen it you first have to loosen the nut holding the collet then there is a 2nd hard spot the pulls the collet out of the hole that is the same thing as using the belted mag collet die.

2. also when using a good RCBS shell holder they may fit 180 around the shell but it only pulls on 2 flat spots of the rim if you tare the back of a shell off due to a stuck shell and inspect it you will clearly see 2 0.1"-0.15" flat spots on a 7mm rem mag shell.

3. I have learned using the shell holder I have made requires less lube enough not to cause brass galling inside the die.

and because you can use more or less lube than normal with out any problems it is much easier/faster to lube/resize than a normal shell holder.
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Old January 14, 2015, 11:48 PM   #8
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photo?
CC
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Old January 15, 2015, 12:08 AM   #9
rcmodel
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Quote:
I dont know if you have ever used a collet before as far as holding a drill bit or endmill but when it gets pressed into the tapered hole it binds a bit to grab the tool
As a matter of fact, I have, for at least 55 years.

But what you are describing is a Morse Tapered chuck, not a collet chuck.

A collet springs open when the pressure is released, releasing whatever it is clamped to.

rc
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Old January 15, 2015, 12:14 AM   #10
ungerstruck
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not all collet springs open when the pressure is released as in 20c or 25c collets and others of that shape do not release when pressure is taken off just like the belted mag collet die they are wedged in place and require almost as much force to release as was originally applied.
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Old January 15, 2015, 01:03 AM   #11
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Are you saying it takes 5-8 seconds to remove a sized case from your shellholder and insert the next case to be sized? Plus, as rcmodel said, lube is still required or stuck cases are guaranteed.

However you frame it, a stuck case is still a stuck case. What you are offering amounts to a combo shellholder and stuck case remover which, by your own description, robs you of resizing leverage and, in the case of a stuck case, puts 3 to 5 times more stress on your press linkage than it takes to rip the rim off the case with a standard shellholder. I'm not sure I see an advantage.
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Old January 15, 2015, 01:12 AM   #12
ungerstruck
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yes you still need to lube the case but the amount of lube is much less critical and the small amount of leverage you lose I have a hard time noticing even with a FL 7mm rem mag die. Plus I have tested it for a while now and not had a single stuck case even with very little lube. But to clarify it takes about 5-8 seconds to change a shell from one to the next where as the rcbs takes only a second or so. but that time is for some one who has never seen or used it before I can change out shells in about 3 seconds without trying to work fast just being a repetitive motion you get good at it.
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Old January 15, 2015, 01:17 AM   #13
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Well, are you going to patent it and keep it secret until the paperwork clears?

Or, are you going to post a photo or Video of it in use so we can all try to understand it's advantage?

rc
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Old January 15, 2015, 01:29 AM   #14
ungerstruck
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Hi just to clarify I am new to forums I dont know if it seems like I am getting upset I can assure you all Im not. I am enjoying this I have not been able to have a reloading conversion of this depth with anyone like this for a long time.

I was thinking about making a video of it and posting a picture or 2 of it in use to show the advantages if people would like to see it.

This was just to see if anyone would be interested in it after explaining how lube is less critical while using this shell holder, but still mandatory and never having a stuck case due to slacking off on the lube.
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Old January 15, 2015, 01:35 AM   #15
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Welcome to the high road ungerstruck,I don't stick cases but I would like to see this invention
CC
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Old January 15, 2015, 01:42 AM   #16
rcmodel
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I wasn't getting upset either, much more then usual.

It's just that in 50 years of reloading, one thing I have learned is:

Correct case lubing is critical if you want to avoid galled brass specs adhering to the inside of the die and scratching cases from then on.
Until you polish them out of the die with black emery paper on a stick.

It's never been a matter to me of IF they stick in the die or not.
It's a matter of insufficient case lube depositing galled brass inside the die.

And it makes no difference if your magic shell holder manages to pull them out, our you pull them out with a stuck case remover.

You still have a sizing die loaded with galled brass that has to be polished out before they stop scratching every case after that until it is removed.

rc
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Old January 15, 2015, 01:49 AM   #17
higgite
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I'm still hearing (reading) you say that the purpose of your shellholder is to prevent stuck cases with what would normally be an inadequate amount of case lube. The only way to do that is to put more lifting force on the press handle, which sounds pretty tiring. I still don't see an advantage over using the normal amount of lube and normal force on the press handle.
Even if you're talking about using the normal amount of lube and only "saving" the occasional underlubed case from sticking, at an additional 2-6 seconds per case to use your shellholder, in only 50-150 cases you have already wasted the 5 minutes it takes to use a stuck case remover. Less if you use a Lee die. If someone is sticking that many cases, the shellholder is the least of their problems. As already pointed out by others, photos or a video might help us see the light.
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Old January 15, 2015, 03:17 AM   #18
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I completely understand what it is you are referring to now.

Before you read the following paragraph, let me just say that it's this kind of innovative thinking, and in general, thinking outside the box that has been responsible for the introduction of new, and often times better tools of the trade. Many of the new fandangled tools that have made been introduced over the last 30 yrs. have made the reloading process easier, more efficient, and more precision. So with that said, don't let my thoughts rain on your parade, this is only one person's perspective.

Lets assume and entertain for a moment that stuck cases are a more than once or twice in a life time event. Better yet, for the sake of argument lets just say this is something that occurs every 2K rounds, though I know this is a grossly inflated estimate. That in order to avoid the hassle of having to set up the RCBS, or other stuck case remover once in a while, one would need to add 8 seconds of processing time to each piece of brass. I think the bigger here is that many of us, lets say those who have been reloading for 10 - 50 years, have either had zero stuck cases, or a few unfortunate instances of such. So as is, I really don't think many would be interested in this particular design. Most reloaders strive to stream line their operation, so adding timely or cumbersome steps, especially one that addresses such rare occurrence, would be very counter productive.

Here's what I think you might work on that may make this idea more practical, therefore more likely to gain some interest. A collet style shell holder that snaps into the ram, exactly as does any standard shell holder, no change there. A roll pin could be used to hinge the two halves of the collet, so they would spread open like a flower. As to how the collet would remain closed on the 360 degrees of the rim, put the case head in the center of the collet, then while holding the halves together with your fingers at first, once there is any torque at all against the collet, it would self lock the halves together on the case rim. This would provide 360 degrees of pulling force on the case head and might even prevent head separation while trying to extract the stuck case from the die.

GS
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Old January 15, 2015, 04:15 AM   #19
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Old January 15, 2015, 08:34 AM   #20
ungerstruck
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hi sorry went to bed and seen a few more posts after I got up.

I too have only had about 2-3 stuck cases in my reloading life in FL resizing but many more with belted mag collet sizing die and yes this is a much slower process so for those who reload many rounds in a session this may not pay when I make rounds I only make 10-15.

I was under the impression people had more stuck cases since there are shops you can send your dies to for the removal of stuck cases, dillon dies have stuck case removers built on them, and rcbs makes a stuck case remover kit plus the longer you go with out having a stuck case the longer you can use the batch of shells you have in sets.

Also it seems this galling on the inside of dies is a bigger problem than I thought, I just tumble my brass every time and they look good as new.

It is made very close to how you explained it gamestalker with 2 halves held in place when force is applied it locks all the way around the shell and then you have no stuck case with the case fully in tacked.

Last edited by ungerstruck; January 15, 2015 at 09:24 AM.
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Old January 15, 2015, 11:12 AM   #21
fguffey
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Quote:
1. I haven't stuck a case in a die since I stopped using sloppy Herters shell holders that didn't fit in 1970.
Sloppy? Herter shell holders were fool proof, where was the slop?

F. Guffey
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Old January 15, 2015, 11:29 AM   #22
fguffey
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I have extended shell holders, some dies require extended shell holders.

I am not interested in lowering the ram with additional effort just because my shell holder is designed to rip the head off of a case that is difficult to remove. In my opinion it could be a bad habit,

I am told on a daily bases pulling the neck sizer plug through the neck when the ram is lowered pulls the shoulder with it. If that is so there has to be a problem with pulling the case head. I have experienced stuck cases, rather than get into mortal combat with the press I remove the shell holder before lowering the ram, after removing the shell holder I remove the die with the stuck case, ! then remove the stuck case.

I have had reloaders send me dies with stuck cases. I have removed the stuck cases after removing the stuck cases I have cleaned the die and lubed it. Then I sized cases with their die, I stuck 5 cases in one die before I was able to lower the ram. I had a new Model 70 Winchester chambered to 300 Win mag. I was never able to size a fired case from that rifle, Winchester and I had words, I wanted a chamber that fit my dies or Winchester dies that fit their chamber. Yes I have case forming dies for the 300 Winchester Mag. After forming then sizing the case is too small for a large chamber.
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Old January 15, 2015, 11:39 AM   #23
ungerstruck
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It looks as if this shell holder would only be helpful with the belted mag collet I have from http://www.larrywillis.com/.
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Old January 15, 2015, 12:23 PM   #24
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Allow me to ask: Did this thread start out as an advertisement for IT?

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Old January 15, 2015, 12:55 PM   #25
ungerstruck
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Nope I simple bought a collet die from them found that no matter the type or amount of lube I used I had stuck cases. Then thought if I made a shell holder that held the whole rim of the shell it wouldn't become stuck, and I was right I haven't had a single problem since I've started using it. Then thought others may also want one or if the need was there for it.

So it seems I need to find people that also use this same die.
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