How Effective Was The MP 44 Assault Rifle?

[Timthinker]

Recently, I have read several threads dealing with the effectiveness of the
.223 cartridge that the U.S. military developed for its M-16 assault rifle some years ago. Those interesting discussions led me to read about the origins and development of assault rifles since World War II. During my research, I began to wonder how effective the MP 44, considered by many to be the world's first true assault rifle, actually was. Specifically, I wonder how effective its 7.92 Kurz round was as a manstopper. This is a topic that I have never seen addressed by any military historian. If anyone has any views on this topic, I certainly wish to read them. Thanks.


Timthinker

[mete]

It was a very good weapon, that's why the Russians copied it ! The Germans developed it because of more close range ,urban warfare in WWII, so long range weapons weren't needed .Millions of AKs use it so it can't be all that bad !!

[Eightball]

Millions of AKs use it

Sorry to bust your bubble, but AKs use 7.62x39, not 7.92 Kurz. Interchanging those rounds=bad thing happening in your firearms.

[selector67]

The russians did not copy MP-44, the AK is based on an entirely different operating principal. The only thing the russians may have copied is the use of an intermediate round in the AK-47 and the effectiveness of it in combat as was shown by the MP-44.

[HorseSoldier]

It was successful enough that just about everyone, not just the Russians, tried to emulate its basic concept after the war.

Contrary to previously stated opinions, it was not manufactured for urban combat. It was made to allow frontline troops to get all the performance they needed out of a rifle at the ranges combat actually occurs at, and get the same sort of fire superiority SMGs then provided at close range. Combat did not change because of the sturmgewehr, the sturmgewehr was an optimized design for the way combat really happened. The fact that the intermediate cartridge concept has rendered the full power rifle round for general service rifle use as extinct as the T-Rex should indicate that they made the right call.

(Not that the Germans invented the idea of the intermediate power cartridge, they simply fielded it first. Lots of people had recognized it was the right idea by the end of WW1, but conservatism and poverty during the Depression slowed fielding in places like the US.)

[Drue]

The Stg44 (+ various precursors and designations) was not the first assault rifle but it was the first mass produced and widely used one. Although the operating system is different and the round that they fire is different, the AK is a spot on copy of the concept in terms of basic layout, implementation and use of an intermediate caliber. The Russians were on the receiving end and developed respect for the concept then went to the drawing board.

During the earlier periods in the WWII conflict between Germany and the Soviet Union the infantrymen were armed with a mix of 5 shot bolt rifles and submachine guns (plus LMGs, mortars etc. etc.) on both sides. The rifles fired powerful ammo and could reach out across the battlefield but a five shot magazine and manual operation restricted the volume of fire they produced. The SMGs had plenty of firepower but the pistol rounds they fired had less power, range and penetration.

Then along comes the Stg. In one weapon, it combines the short range firepower of the SMG with the ability to use it as a rifle, at least out as far as the average conscript could use it anyway. In the SMG mode, the Stg provided more power and penetration than the pistol ammo did and in the rifle mode it provided 30 rounds and semi automatic operation rather than five rounds and manual operation. Both sides employed their better shots as snipers, using full powered, longer ranged ammo.

The Stg proved to be very effective.

Drue

[Prince Yamato]

I would say that the Russians used it as a framework for the AK-47, but the Germans and Spanish kept right on using it, G3, CETME, and MP5 anyone?

[Spencer]

I began to wonder how effective the MP 44, considered by many to be the world's first true assault rifle, actually was. Specifically, I wonder how effective its 7.92 Kurz round was as a manstopper. This is a topic that I have never seen addressed by any military historian. If anyone has any views on this topic, I certainly wish to read them. Thanks.

It was the Sturmgewehr 44, the MP44 was a submachine gun that if I recalled right fired 9mm.

StG 44 is the one that fired 7.92 Kurz.

But yes, the StG 44 was very effective but it just came too late in the war for the Germans.

The AK-47 was designed on the premise of the StG 44, even thought the G3 looks more like it than the AK-47 does.

Heckler and Koch produced the StG 44.

[SigfanUSAF]

I would say that the Russians used it as a framework for the AK-47, but the Germans and Spanish kept right on using it, G3, CETME, and MP5 anyone?

The HK/CETME roller locked/delayed blowback mechanism was derived from the Mauser StG45, not the StG44. The StG44 used a gas operated design.

It was the Sturmgewehr 44, the MP44 was a submachine gun that if I recalled right fired 9mm

MP44 is another designation for the StG44. The 9mm MP you're referring to is the MP38, 38/40, and 40 series. Hitler had a directive that rifle development was to cease and submachine gun guns stepped up. The MP designation was so the StG44 would appear as an "MP" in monthly production reports.

[Geronimo45]

It was codenamed MP44 by the army, as I remember it, 'cause Hitler wanted nothing but SMGs. MP40/38 and similar fired the 9mm. After Hitler found out about it, and what it had done, he gave it the Stg. designation - assault rifle.

The nice idea behind the Stg. 44 is the fact that a SMG didn't have much range, the rifle didn't have much volume. If you've got to clear a house, you want an SMG. If you've got to take out the sniper up on top of the roof next door, you want a rifle. It's an extremely versatile weapon that, within limits, fulfills both functions. Good range and automatic fire for close range.

[Spencer]

MP44 is another designation for the StG44. The 9mm MP you're referring to is the MP38, 38/40, and 40 series. Hitler had a directive that rifle development was to cease and submachine gun guns stepped up. The MP designation was so the StG44 would appear as an "MP" in monthly production reports

Yeah that's right.

I was thinking of MP40.

I remember when I read how Hitler thought the production of such a rifle as the StG 44 was blasphemous.

[CornCod]

In the trenches of WW1 Corporal Hitler had a lot of respect for the bolt rifle and long range rifle shooting. He was conservative in his firearms theory and radical on everything else.

[harvester of sorrow]

Heckler and Koch produced the StG 44.

This is incorrect.

From the link here:

http://www.hkpro.com/history.htm

" Heckler and Koch GmbH (HK) was registered in December of 1949 and officially opened for business in this historical center of German gun-making enterprise in 1950."

[dfaugh]

He [Hitler] was conservative in his firearms theory and radical on everything else.

In most cases yes, but he blundered on a few other weapons, too. He often took a good waepon, and decided, that it should be used for something it wasn't designed for.

Case in point: the ME 262---originally designed as a fighter, but much wrnagling went on becasue Hitler wanted it to be a bomber. So, there were delays in getting them into service. Might have changed (although probably not for too long) the air-superiority landscape over Europe.

P.S. My dad was a tail gunner in a B-17 towards the end of the war. On his last mission, they were attacked by an ME-262, which cut through their formation like a knife through butter (They'd never encountered anything that fast, and the could fly straight up). Pretty much made hamburger out of their plane, which barely made it back. Ah, well I digress.

[SigfanUSAF]

Heckler and Koch produced the StG 44.

No, as Harvester of Sorrow stated, they did not.

The StG44 was produced by-
-C.G. Haenel-Waffen und Fahrradfabrik AG, Suhl
-Erfurter Maschinenfabrik B Geipel GmbH, Erfurt
-Mauser-Werke AG Oberndorf-am-Neckar
-As well as a fourth unidentified company

The Stg44 mit Krummlauf was produced by-
-C.G. Haenel-Waffen und Fahrradfabrik AG, Suhl
-Rheinmetall-Borsig AG, Dusseldorf

Production of the MP43 began in July of 1943/ upgraded to the MP43/1 in late '43 with the addition of a threaded muzzle for a screw on grenade launcher and also scope mounting point/ Nomenclature upgraded to MP44 in April '44 for no apparent reason/ StG44 nomenclature came about in late '44

[geim druth]

The Germans also developed a auto-loader, the gas operated Walther Gewehr 41. It was produced and issued in significant quantities, especially to troops on the Eastern Front. But, the MP43/44 was so clearly superior that it soon replaced the 41.

[SigfanUSAF]

The Germans also developed a auto-loader, the gas operated Walther Gewehr 41.

The first ISSUED German autoloading rifle was the Flieger Selbstladekarabiner Model 15, a Mauser design stemming from the c/02, and c/06/08 autoloaders. The Model 15 saw limited use in World War One as an issue weapon for aircraft observers and balloonists. The next generation of German semi-autos came about with the G-41, sure enough. Though the G-41 was superceded by the G-43 which remained in production from late '43 until the end of the war. Lest we forget a very successful German autoloader, the FG-42, which was the first select-fire chambering a full-powered round.

[HorseSoldier]

Specifically, I wonder how effective its 7.92 Kurz round was as a manstopper.

It's probably worth noting that there was nothing really preferred about the use of 7.92mm for the sturmgewehr caliber except that it made big-picture logistics issues easier (like at the weapon manufacture level and the like). The pre-war German preference was for a 7mm intermediate round (shades of the British .280 and .280/30 post-WW2 and the more recent 6.8mm SPC cartridges, to name just a couple of .270-280 caliber also rans).

[Archie]

Drue: The Stg44 (+ various precursors and designations) was not the first assault rifle but it was the first mass produced and widely used one.

The U. S. M1 Carbine was introduced in 1941 and more or less fits the 'assault rifle' description - except it wasn't select fire in the early incarnations. The U. S. 'Pederson device' is sort of an 'assault rifle thingie' except it fired a pistol level round and was not to my knowledge select fire.

Which assault rifle are you thinking preceded the Stg 44?

As far as effectiveness is concerned, the 7.62x39 is roughly equivelent to a .30-30 round. The .223/5.56 NATO round is not universally accepted as a 'wooly booger man thumper'. .30 Carbine does not bring shooters to their feet as the biggest and best of the lot. In terms of paper energy, it's about .357 Magnum level - not a rifle round.

The first I ever heard of the 7.92 Kurz was in an article in the 1960s about rechambering the M1 Carbine to that round. Someone commenting on that conversion denounced the 7.92 Kurz as 'another do-nothing' round. As I recall, the 7.92K shoots a lighter (100-110 grain?) 8mm (.323 caliber) bullet about 2150 feet per second or so.

I wouldn't choose it for larger bear, moose or larger African game, but it would probably take wild pig or deer within 125 yards or so. As a fighting round, it sounds adequate to me.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I would say that the Russians used it as a framework for the AK-47, but the Germans and Spanish kept right on using it, G3, CETME, and MP5 anyone?

Well, East Germany adopted the assault rifle concept. Spain and West Germany were bound by the NATO agreements that adopted 7.62 NATO as the standard caliber - so while they weren't able to adopt the concept of an intermediate caliber rifle, they did adopt the remaining aspects of the design.

You'll note that as soon as the United States (which had forced 7.62x51 down NATOs collective throat) jumped ship and adopted 5.56mm NATO, the remaining nations switched as soon as it was economically feasible to do so.

[eab]

What round would you say is 7.92 Kurz equlivlent too?

Closer to .308? Somewhere inbetween .308 and 7.62x39? Closer to a 7.62x39?

[AndyC]

Far less than a 7.62x39 - it's a pretty stubby round:

[Metapotent]

As I recall, the 7.92K shoots a lighter (100-110 grain?) 8mm (.323 caliber) bullet about 2150 feet per second or so.

No, the 7.92 Kurz fires .311 caliber, 125-grain bullet at about 2100-2200fps. I'm not sure whether or not the Germans used 125gr bullets in WWII, but I know that it is the standard load by handloaders these days.

I know a guy that has about 5 bolt-action rifles in 7.92 Kurz and even had a revolver custom-built to chamber it. He doesn't have the STG44 however. I guess he handloads them by reshaping and resizing a .30-06 casing or so he says.

Far less than a 7.62x39 - it's a pretty stubby round:

Don't let the appearance of the round fool you, it is only slightly less powerful than the x39 is.

[Matthew Temkin]

According to Tales Of The Gun Hitler asked the leading General of the Russian front if there was anything else that he needed and he asked for more STG44's.
Hitler then asked what that was and the cat was out of the bag--since Hitler had forbidden it's manufacture.
Luckily for it's designers Hitler was in a forgiving mood that day and gave the weapon it's official blessing.
And from what I have read, it was very popular with the troops.
WW2 German small arms were state of the art and widely copied, as well as some ideas for helmets and uniforms.
I recall watching our units going into action on TV during the first Gulf war with my dad and recall him saying how much our troops resembled Rommel's Africa Corp.

[hksw]

No, the 7.92 Kurz fires .311 caliber,...

Are you sure about this?