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Old November 13, 2014, 12:31 PM   #1
jlr1962
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tall tales

Does anybody else think that exaggerating accuracy makes all shooters look bad? I have seen posters claim shooting all day, on paper, 100 yards, with their .380 and .25 pistols. Shooting iron sights "all day long" on production $600.00 ar' s into 2 inch groups at 500 yards. Consistent 800 to 1000 yards first shot hits with $500.00 combo rifles. And on and on and on. Am I just being a grumpy old man here?
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Old November 13, 2014, 12:35 PM   #2
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Sure. Especially as, around here anyway, everyone and their brother will jump on the exaggerating goon and pummel him until he admits that he can't tell 1" from 1' or 500 yards from 500 feet, that he actually hasn't ever really fired his rifle, doesn't even know what cartridge it shoots, and probably that he still wets the bed.

Then the ensuing brawl gets the thread shut down and three or four members banned for life. It's a terrible thing!


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Old November 13, 2014, 12:38 PM   #3
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Quote:
Does anybody else think that exaggerating accuracy makes all shooters look bad?
Probably no worse than fishermen.

Quote:
Am I just being a grumpy old man here?
Id say no, and I know what you mean.

I always looked at it, its what you can do "on demand" with whatever youre handed, is what your skill level is.

What you do, once or twice, isnt.

I have seen people do some pretty spectacular things, and with some unlikely things, and do it over and over, so, I know it can happen. It just usually doesnt happen with the majority of shooters I see shoot, including myself.

I do have a pretty good idea as to what I can do on demand though.
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Old November 13, 2014, 12:39 PM   #4
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Thanks Sam. I will keep that in mind. The last and only previous thread I started got shut down.
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Old November 13, 2014, 12:46 PM   #5
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Ahh. Yes, but you got almost 50 responses and it was closed as an "asked and answered" thing, not for unpleasantness.

Just don't lie about your shooting prowess!
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Old November 13, 2014, 01:10 PM   #6
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Reminds me of something that happened to me many years ago. I was walking down a beach in Florida and came across a one-armed man surf fishing. He had the whole process down pat and was apparently pretty good at it judging from the fish in his bucket. Better than I was anyway.

I asked him what was the biggest fish he'd caught. He paused, held his rod under his good right arm, held his right hand down vertically at about his waist, looked at his hand and shifted it a bit and said, "About that big". True fishing story ... I promise.
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Old November 13, 2014, 01:21 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Sam1911 View Post
Then the ensuing brawl gets the thread shut down and three or four members banned for life. It's a terrible thing!

It is a terrible thing. Wouldn't a term of confinement to the rest of the internet followed with the chance of lifetime parole at THR upon request and with the promise of no further offense from the offender be a possibility?
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Old November 13, 2014, 02:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlr1962 View Post
Does anybody else think that exaggerating accuracy makes all shooters look bad? I have seen posters claim shooting all day, on paper, 100 yards, with their .380 and .25 pistols. Shooting iron sights "all day long" on production $600.00 ar' s into 2 inch groups at 500 yards. Consistent 800 to 1000 yards first shot hits with $500.00 combo rifles. And on and on and on. Am I just being a grumpy old man here?

Go to the hunting sub-forum and you can read about the guys that have hunted deer for 50 years, shot hundreds of animals and never made a bad shot on any. If they didn't get a bang flop, it was always a clean miss.


This is the internet where folks are anonymous and proof is easy to fake. Like those paper target pictures with the six shot, one ragged hole supposedly made @ 50 yards, one handed, with a .44 magnum alloy snubbie.

Human nature makes it so we fell the need to embellish. One reason I always take anything I read on the internet with a grain or two of salt. Does the embellishment hurt the overall image of shooters? I doubt it, and I'm a grumpy old fart also. What hurts the shooting sports is the display of unsafe and irresponsible actions when in possession of a firearm. That and the chest pounding ultra macho claims that rules and laws only apply to others. Like the I carry everywhere I go, even where it's prohibited....and you should too. Or the hunter that claims that they know more than F&G or the DNR so they shoot/hunt appropriately and you should too....telling us the real hunter's code is SSS. Anti's just love that "Bubba" image.
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Old November 13, 2014, 02:32 PM   #9
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snipershide and arfcom both have "1 MOA all day" threads where members call each other out on their ridiculous claims and get them to submit targets with 5 groups of 5 on one piece of paper.
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Old November 13, 2014, 02:37 PM   #10
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I've often wondered if 50 yard groups get extrapolated up to whatever distance is needed at the moment...
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Old November 13, 2014, 02:41 PM   #11
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I've often wondered if 3 yard groups get extrapolated up to whatever distance is needed at the moment...
fixed for ya.....
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Old November 13, 2014, 02:57 PM   #12
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LOL, Im not much of a rifle shooter. I have rifles... I shoot them. Im on paper... That's about all I can say. If I sit there and hold my breathing and really focus I can get tight groups... Good enough for hunting's sake anyway... I'm certainly not poking the same hole over and over though.

That said, Ive never seen the use for accuracy any better then a target that's about the size of a head. My primary focus for owning firearms is protection against a threat. I'm more than sufficient accuracy wise for that particular purpose.

I find myself working on speed more often than accuracy. Which is why when I lie about my shooting skills, its usually focused on the intervals
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Old November 13, 2014, 03:03 PM   #13
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Shooters who tell tall tales about their shooting prowess? No way! Never!
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Old November 13, 2014, 03:25 PM   #14
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"There I was, at 50,000 feet..."

Same as war stories.
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Old November 13, 2014, 03:29 PM   #15
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As long as one of them do not have your back why worry? If you read unrealistic claims in a thread just make a mental note to yourself not to read that thread or posts from the same author. There is no reason to get stirred up over something you have no control over. As a young man growing up on an Iowa farm I learned early that you don't have to actually touch the pig to get the odor, you can just walk across the pen......
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Old November 13, 2014, 03:32 PM   #16
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5 shot, 1,127 meter group from a 1945 mismatched M44, combloc surplus ammo dated '53. How you gals like it?

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Old November 13, 2014, 03:35 PM   #17
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I almost never see 1 MOA groups at the range

(I have done it OCCASIONALLY, with handloads and extremely slow shooting

But they are common on the boards

Maybe the accurate shooters go to other ranges?
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Old November 13, 2014, 03:36 PM   #18
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I think it is, unfortunately, human nature to exaggerate our abilities. I think it is also important to recognize that shooters all have different benchmarks as to how they measure accuracy and even group size.

I know some shooters who measure from the outside of the two furthest holes on the paper and that is their group size. I know others who measure from the center of those same holes. Then others do one of the above while disregarding anything deemed "A flier".

For me, I admitted to myself a long time ago that many thousands of shooters out there are better than I am. I still like to have good looking holey paper and nice loud clangs on the metal targets . It is the same as running used to be in my younger years. I never ran a race in my life but loved the feeling I got doing it.
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Old November 13, 2014, 04:14 PM   #19
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Again, I believe it's just human nature to embellish in order to make us look better in our eyes. Probably just the competitiveness of our species. Whatever you can do I can do better kinda thing. It applies to more than guns and fish. Parents are another example. About a year and a half ago my son and his wife has a son...we'll call him Bo. At the same time, a nephew and his wife that live 1000 miles away have a son we'll call Jaden. Right after birth the competition begins. Whenever my DIL would make a post on Facebook about an accomplishment Bo made, the Niece-in-law woud reply "aw, Jaden did that weeks ago!". This went on for a coupla months regardless of what accomplishment it was. Jaden was always way ahead of Bo. Got so my DIL gave up. 8 months after those births, another niece gave birth to a baby boy and the competition started all over. Again Jaden had always been the first to do anything. When the younger boy's mom posted a video of him taking his first steps @ 11 months of age, the other niece immediately posted a video of Jaden @ 8 months taking his first steps. My DIL's response? "Hey....isn't that the outfit we gave Jaden for his first Birthday?"
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Old November 13, 2014, 04:19 PM   #20
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some apparently impossible or unlikely things happen all the time. like how a tornado can go through a town and destroy nothing but the only storm shelter in town.
or back in the grand rapids michigan palm sunday tornado, demolish a house and carry a baby in a crib a 100 yards from its home, and not harm it in anyway.

or how someone who has never shot a gun has miraculously taken an unscoped 10/22 with bulk ammo and put a 100 rounds into a half inch circle at 100 yards.
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Old November 13, 2014, 04:23 PM   #21
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I have no problem hitting a 12" steel plate at 100 yards with my 1911...............as long as I have 3 full mags, a dusty field and a spotter.
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Old November 13, 2014, 04:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlr1962
I have seen posters claim shooting all day, on paper, 100 yards, with their .380 and .25 pistols.
If you take a course from Aaron Roberts, you will shoot an 8" steel plate at 100 yards with a handgun. I've never done it with a subcompact myself, because why the heck would I bring a subcompact to that class, but I have seen it done with them before.

So yeah, some things are tall tales.. and sometimes, they aren't.
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Old November 13, 2014, 04:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Sam1911 View Post
Just don't lie about your shooting prowess!
What if we don't have any shooting prowess about which to lie? I did get 22/25 on my last round of trap last night. Not that big of deal other than I'm relearning to shoot left-handed/eyed. (I got 16/25 and 17/25 on the first two rounds, but I won't mention that.)

I don't get annoyed as much with people who claim somewhat unbelievable repeated feats of accuracy/precision as I do when attempts to replicate those feats are unsuccessful _and_ the excuses start flowing, especially when everyone/everything else except the shooter is to blame.

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Old November 13, 2014, 05:56 PM   #24
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You can always tell the bad shooters because they're the ones claiming no one else can do what they claim. Sure there are people who make outrageous and even stupid claims. But I've seen lots of legitimate claims get hammered by the "if I can't you can't" crowd. Even when evidence is supplied it doesn't change the attitude of people. Once they decide you lied they gang up on you and forget defending what you said. It only makes things worse. It's a jealousy thing obviously. I've seen "lots" of wannabe great shooters at the range BTW. For example one guy actually laughed at me for moving a steel target back from 7 yards to 25 yards. He said I would never hit it with my Sig P220. I hit it 9 out of 10 shots so then he told me it was a waste of time since all gun fights take place inside 7 yards. I "KNOW" that jealousy causes people to attack others for posting their groups. I am far from the best shooter on earth but I've been hammered for making claims others thought were too good to be true. The thing is my religion keeps me from lying. And then there's the fact that people don't actually read what you say. They think a one off group means you can shoot that size group all the time even though you never said that.

In the end it's one of the ugliest things about gun boards. I've know some fantastic shooters in my time. I've seen fantastic shots and I've seen them repeated. And I've seen even routine groups get maligned as lies. It would be different if a person came on here claiming to shoot .5" groups at 1000 yards with a 10/22. That's just stupid and yes I've seen the equivalent of that. I've seen people claim to have killed deer on the run from 600 yards with a .22. So yes there are stupid claims. But someone claiming they have shot .5 MOA groups at 100 yards with a quality rifle are not only not ridiculous they're almost boringly common. I guarantee I can describe groups I've shot and someone will claim I'm lying. I wouldn't say I could do it every time but they would take it that way. I can prove it easily but I won't. Try it yourself. Describe your best one off group and watch the naysayers hammer you.

Again this stuff gets ugly quick. It's the worst thing that happens on these boards IMO. Don't think that because you can't that no one can because I've seen people do incredible things and there are countless videos on the web to document their incredible shooting. And I guarantee that I can post a description of well known videos that clearly aren't staged and someone will say it's all a lie.

It really is arrogance that makes people think that others can't because they can't.

Quote:
So yeah, some things are tall tales.. and sometimes, they aren't.
Bingo. Should we link to videos showing some of the super shooters like Munden and Mucilek shooting snub nose revolvers at targets at 200 yards and hitting them. Munden hit balloons. Mucilek made steel ring. Do we have shooters like that on this board? Not likely but there's a lot of room to be "good" without being as good as those guys. And let's not even get into how fast they shoot and how accurate they are even at speeds that they eye can't follow. Munden could hit 2 balloons separated by a substantial distance and make it sound like only one round was fired. Again I doubt any of us are that good but there may be some here who come closer than some think.

Quote:
Maybe the accurate shooters go to other ranges?
Sorry but this is too much. I've seen lots of MOA groups with a .22 at 100 yards. I've shot several myself. And here it comes. The avalanche of "you did not" that comes with every claim. I mean "NO" MOA groups at your range??? You're right. You are shooting with a bunch of people that can't shoot.

Here's one MOA group I shot with a .22 at 100 yards. I won't even show you my 100 groups with my .223 varmint rifle. It would just lead to trouble. I could post groups of other shooters on this board that I know are legit. But that wouldn't be fair to them. They don't want to be involved in this I'm sure. And lest you think this is a one off group I'll be glad to post many more. I save a lot of targets and yes most of them are my better targets. But you said:

Quote:
I almost never see 1 MOA groups at the range
I see lots of them. Heck I shoot lots of them. This isn't a very high standard BTW. But it's a good example of someone thinking that because they can't then others can't.



Here's a 90 yard group I found handy again shot with a .22. You'll get the idea from the photo.



No offense but I've shot hundreds of groups like these.

One more just for effect. This one was only 3 shots at 90 yards but I did it with a Marlin 60.



Same rifle. Same distance. Same target. 5 shot group.


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Old November 13, 2014, 06:01 PM   #25
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We have a guy at our range that routinely gets most of his shots on paper at 100 yards using revolvers. I think he cheats, but I have not figured out how he does it.

Well, he did win a championship at Camp Perry once upon a time.
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