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Old April 11, 2014, 10:09 PM   #1
rallyhound
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Kel Tec rant

Hey Kel Tec, I notice you run big beautiful adds in all the gun mags showing us the cool guns you could make if you wanted to.

How about you take that fat add budget and buy some machines and hire some people and actually put some guns in stores so I can buy one of your uber-cool plastic toys at somewhere near MSRP.

Or even jack up MSRP by 50% so i don't feel like I'm getting screwed if I do buy one of your products.

I'm beginning to think it's not only HK that hates us.
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Old April 11, 2014, 10:28 PM   #2
Ed Ames
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I suspect they are trying to gauge public interest to decide what to actually build.

As for MSRP...

KT is one of the few companies I don't like buying used because of their warranty limit, so I have a fair handle on KT prices in my market.

I bought my RFB for about 25% below MSRP about a year ago.

Saw a SU-16A for about 25% below MSRP two weeks ago.

P3ATs are selling for 10% under MSRP in local stores. Same with PF9s and P11s. Haven't seen a p32.

My SUB2K is a few years old but it was under MSRP.

I saw a KSG for 10% over MSRP a few days ago and laughed...no way I would pay that, for that.

I haven't seen a PMR-30 in some ti e but they were absurdly overpriced..70% over MSRP. Nope, ain't gonna.

Those are all new prices from retail stores.
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Old April 11, 2014, 10:38 PM   #3
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Quote:
Hey Kel Tec, I notice you run big beautiful adds in all the gun mags showing us the cool guns you could make if you wanted to.

How about you take that fat add budget and buy some machines and hire some people and actually put some guns in stores so I can buy one of your uber-cool plastic toys at somewhere near MSRP.

Or even jack up MSRP by 50% so i don't feel like I'm getting screwed if I do buy one of your products.

I'm beginning to think it's not only HK that hates us.
Please, tell us how you really feel!

I have had a few Kel-Tec products over the years as in the P-11, P32, PLR-16 and the RFB. Never had any issues with them but all have been sold off except for the RFB. I think I'll keep that one for a while.
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Old April 11, 2014, 10:45 PM   #4
rcmodel
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Quote:
I don't like buying used because of their warranty limit
What warranty limit?

Far as I know they have never ask anyone to provide a original bill of sale, or proof you are the first owner.

It breaks, they fix it, or send you free parts to fix it yourself it is how it works.

I do agree that they have always been premature in announcing new products, and advertising things they can't produce.

But their warranty is beyond reproach.
Whether you are the first owner, or the forth.

rc
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Old April 11, 2014, 11:36 PM   #5
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My experience is the problem with Kel-Tec's warranty is you will most likely need it.

I suspect they spend so much time fixing what they've made that it interferes with making more.

My:
P3AT back once many parts sent to be for replacement.
RFB back three times and parts exchanged twice.

They do have great support, but I'd prefer to only rarely need it.
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Old April 12, 2014, 01:50 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcmodel
What warranty limit?

Far as I know they have never ask anyone to provide a original bill of sale, or proof you are the first owner.

It breaks, they fix it, or send you free parts to fix it yourself it is how it works.

I do agree that they have always been premature in announcing new products, and advertising things they can't produce.

But their warranty is beyond reproach.
Whether you are the first owner, or the forth.

rc

You obviously haven't contacted them lately.

They dropped that warranty anything from anyone stuff a few years back.

I picked up a used PF9 a couple of years back that had fail to eject problems, thinking like you they would warranty any problems original owner or not.

Nope.

Original owner only and copy of the receipt to prove it. If I wanted to ship it to them they would make the repairs and charge me for them but it was not under warranty.


Kel-Tec's unlimited warranty to any owner is a thing of the past.


From Kel-Tec's site:

"The exact warranty terms and conditions can be found in the back of the instruction manual that came with your Kel-Tec product. It usually covers defects in material and workmanship for the lifetime of the product and for the ORIGINAL OWNER only. Only Kel-Tec manufactured products are covered by this warranty, for exact details please consult your manual or download a copy here."

http://www.keltecweapons.com/faq/


And the "ORIGINAL OWNER" in caps is not my emphasis that's how it appears on their site.

Last edited by Weevil; April 12, 2014 at 02:01 AM.
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Old April 12, 2014, 02:02 AM   #7
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Ads are more fun to make/manage than is manufacturing, that's why . Mr. Kellgren has also presided over lord knows how many bankruptcies, and he seems to be playing Kel-Tec's business model slow and safe in his old age (would you want the stress and hassle of an overextended, ambitious, collapsing company, or the comfy industry of a small company with a long, healthy backorder that pursues nifty R&D and marketing projects?)

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Old April 12, 2014, 02:13 AM   #8
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Kel-tec's warranty now covers the original owner only. Proof of purchase is required. And if you have to send it in, you will do it at your cost. If you have checked the fine print and know about it in advance, you can send a request in writing, along with a receipt for shipping costs, and they will reimburse you. But they will not pay for shipping up front as most other manufacturers do.

Most people are not aware of the change and it comes as a nasty surprise when they find out that the gun they thought had a "lifetime warranty" is not covered.
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Old April 12, 2014, 04:03 AM   #9
Ed Ames
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Quote:
What warranty limit?
Mainly the original owner only part.

I went through this about two weeks ago. As soon as the guy at KT realized my problem wasn't something they could fix on the phone, the next question was "Were you the original purchaser?" I was told I needed to send them the rifle, the dealer receipt from when I bought the gun, and a letter explaining the problem. When I asked about paying shipping they said, "You pay shipping here, we pay shipping back."

This isn't new. I remember researching them in '07 or '08 when I wanted to buy a used P3AT and the word then was that the warranty was for the original owner only and KT wouldn't let it slide.
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Old April 12, 2014, 09:36 AM   #10
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Kel Tec rant

Here's mine...

I have a couple of KelTec pocket pistols that I've had for years and carry on a regular basis. They've served well. I have a couple of 22wmr rifles and would like to someday get a handgun in that caliber. Since I like S&W revolvers, I was interested in the Model 48 until I realized the prices had inflated to Hindenburg size. When the PMR-30 was announced, it looked like the perfect match for my purpose. Problem is, I've never seen one, even these years later. And I put my name on a dealer's waiting list. That was almost two years ago now - never heard from him. KelTec just isn't all that interested in selling them, obviously.

I put the PMR-30 in the same category as Sasquatch, Yeti, and UFO abductions.
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Old April 12, 2014, 09:42 AM   #11
W L Johnson
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Original purchaser and proof of purchase required is the norm for many if not most products, read the small print.
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Old April 12, 2014, 10:54 AM   #12
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My experience with Kel-Tec is limited. I bought my PF9 used in April of 2010. It's seen about 500 rounds or so, half through the original blued slide assembly, and half through the hard-chrome replacement I got from them later to combat Florida rust.

Never had any failures, and it has been my EDC since I got it. In all fairness, I have no way of knowing if the previous owner(s) had any work done on it.

I have a P32 I bought new in June of 2011 to carry when dress code prevents carrying the nine. It's probably only seen 200-250 or so rounds. No failures at all; only (minor) issue is the magazine release sticks out too far, and I had incidents of the magazine being inadvertently released during carry. Filing down the button some is an easy fix.

Neither of these is a "range gun." They get a few mags run through them twice or so a year (the PF9 more often, as ammo for it is more available), so it will likely be a long time before either wears out enough to need work.
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Old April 12, 2014, 11:13 AM   #13
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My issue with Kel-Tec is that it's rare to see one of their products in stores. Not only do they not produce enough, but a lot of stores won't stock their products "anymore" because they've heard of or seen too many problems.

I think Kel-Tec has a lot of great ideas, but they tend to implement them terribly. Between bad QC (one gunsmith at a local LGS said he's sold more LCPs than P3ATs and repaired more P3ATs than LCPs). That, and the fact that they produce so slow, suggests to me that they are more about the R&D than about the finished product.
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Old April 12, 2014, 12:27 PM   #14
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The problem for Kel-Tec for me is I just don't trust them. A lot of problems I've read about their guns. I just don't want to rely on luck to get a good gun. I really want to try them out but can't, not when there are gun makers with better track records. I do appreciate them thinking "out of the box" and driving innovation, though.
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Old April 12, 2014, 01:45 PM   #15
Ed Ames
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Quote:
Original purchaser and proof of purchase required is the norm for many if not most products,
Many products, yes. I don't object to the policy, but it is a factor in my willingness to buy used.

If everyone is less willing to buy a particular product used, that cuts resale value. Low resale value is generally bad for a manufacturer because it raises the cost ot ownership (if you buy new for $100, and can sell used for $90, a widget only cost $10 net...if the resale value is only $40 that same widget suddenly costs $60 net) and can even leave them competing with their own product. That's why many companies making high value durable goods (e.g. guns) don't limit their service to original owners.

Of course in KT's case, some people are willing to ignore that and pay huge premiums for used just to own one. When I got my RFB I could have turned around and sold it, unfired, for twice what I paid. I didn't because I had been on the lookout for one since they were "released". I suspect that, beyond the obvious cost control factor, there might be a little bit of anti-scalping resentment in KT enforcing the original owner limit now. KT prices their guns very fairly. They could easily think that their pricing is right and people paying more is a mistake they don't want to encourage. Or not, I don't know them.

Quote:
I put the PMR-30 in the same category as Sasquatch, Yeti, and UFO abductions.
I have seen probably a dozen of them at various dealers. I remember handling one early on that was marked $350ish and thinking, "that's just too much money for this gun"... then I saw one at $450 and laughed. Then I saw another at $500, then $600...when they crossed $700 at dealers my laughter was hard to tell from crying. I'd like to have one, but honestly I am happier with my .22 TCM which, OK, holds only 17+1 to the PMR's 30 but it also converts to 9mm in under a minute. My RIA .22 TCM with the 9mm barrel cost less than the last PMR I saw on a dealer shelf and .22 TCM costs the same per round as the cheapest readily available .22 WRM today, and that's before you get into reloading. From what I have read the PMR chronos 40gr at about 1300fps vs about 2000fps for the TCM (I haven't chronographed either personally). If you really want a PMR for anything other than magazine capacity bragging rights, look at the TCM.
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Old April 12, 2014, 02:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W L Johnson
Original purchaser and proof of purchase required is the norm for many if not most products, read the small print.
While that's true that was not always the case with Kel Tec.

When they started and for many years after they would warranty their products for anyone, no questions asked.

That has changed in recent years to "original owner" with proof.


A lot of people are still under the impression that their old no questions asked warranty policy is still in effect and it no longer is.
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Old April 12, 2014, 09:45 PM   #17
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Well I have made my feelings known about this company and the hit and miss attitude they create their wares with. I think that one would have to really be off their rocker to bet his life on one of their guns. Over the years they have about a 50 % complaint rate on their products, and would not waste my time even looking at anything they sell.
I would think they were losing too much money fixing guns to continue to do that forever.
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Old April 12, 2014, 10:20 PM   #18
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My experience with KT customer service is very positive!! I had an early SU-16C, after 2000 rounds the firing pin snapped (old design) in 7 days I was sent a new design pin, extractor, and spring. Second time at 4500 rounds the bolt carrier became unstaked and cracked the receiver. In 4 weeks they sent me a new receiver with a chrome plated barrel. Yes, not an AR (I have one), but at the time I lived in Crook, I mean Cook Co, ILL. (Chicago) and the AR was banned
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Old April 13, 2014, 08:46 PM   #19
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My Kel-Tec P3AT (well, it says Ruger LCP on it, but it's really a P3AT) has been flawless.
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Old April 13, 2014, 09:06 PM   #20
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I bought my P32 in 2003. I might have 200 rounds through it. It is ammo sensitive, but works fine with what it likes. I bought most of the accessories that were offered at the time just to have a complete set of P32 stuff. The slide had lost most of it's blueing a couple of years ago and I had it nickel plated. It has the white frame, which I read somewhere was a limited production. But I didn't know that then. If something broke I'm not sure if I'd retire it or fix it. K-T should have the original owners in a data base if they had the sense to send in the warranty card or whatever they had then. I doubt I would buy a new K-T anything. Too many new and probably better options on the market. Except in 32 ACP, which I like.
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Old April 13, 2014, 09:14 PM   #21
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gym writes:

Quote:
Over the years they have about a 50 % complaint rate on their products
Source?

Quote:
I would think they were losing too much money fixing guns to continue to do that forever.
Evidently, this is not the case. Besides, few businesses last "forever."

Your feelings regarding sub-xx-dollar guns is old news here.
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Last edited by MedWheeler; April 13, 2014 at 09:23 PM.
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:11 PM   #22
rtz
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I don't know if you all saw it a couple weeks ago; but I found this tour of their factory to be extremely interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZVXd-Lx3Zs
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Old April 13, 2014, 10:46 PM   #23
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The PF9 has a known problem with some firearms failing to extract. You indicated failure to EJECT, but perhaps it was extraction. My PF9 had that problem.

The spring that keeps the extractor in place is a flat piece of metal bent into a slight curve. It is not always strong enough. Adding a second "spring" flush with the first one, and then replacing the 6-32 screw with one that just about 2 extra threads (to account for the additional width of the metal it mus hol onto, works.


Mine ceased to have any problem. Nice gun.
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Old April 14, 2014, 03:33 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Ames View Post
I suspect they are trying to gauge public interest to decide what to actually build.
Ya, that must be why in the 5 YEARS that I've had my FFL I've had 9mm glock Sub2K's on order with 6 different distributors ... and I've been able to get exactly THREE.
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Old April 14, 2014, 04:44 PM   #25
gym
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It looks very unorganized from the video. having worked in a Defense Plant, at a very early age, I see many operations that should be more automated, thus they would allow for far less error on the part of people with hammers. The insertion and injection of pins and other small parts, require extremely precise torque and pressure in order to assure that you retain consistency, unless you are a skilled machinist, aka "gunsmith". If we assembled DOD equipment like that, there would have been a lot less birds in the sky. Even the jigs for small operations are lacking, now it becomes more clear why they have issues.
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