Quantcast
People always say it's 'guns' or 'mental health' but no one simply says 'Anger'.... - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Social Situations > General Gun Discussions

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 27, 2015, 01:07 PM   #1
usmarine0352_2005
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 21, 2005
Posts: 2,717
People always say it's 'guns' or 'mental health' but no one simply says 'Anger'....

With this recent shooting in Virginia of 2 journalists that was the first of it's kind, being on-air and taped by the killer and then quickly put on social media. Some say he may have used a Gopro camera attached to his head via headband. I think this will be the start of a new era for mass killers. Taping the killing has happened before but never put on social media to gloat over. Sadly I think this is just the start of this horrible type of crime.


People are saying that this has to do with guns and mental health. Obviously, you can't blame the gun as it is merely a tool. On the same day a man stabbed 3 women with a kitchen knife, killing one, and then killed a police officer who responded with his own duty weapon, and that officer happened to be his own cousin. Without the gun that killer managed to attack 3 people and kill 1 without a gun.


Both are cases where mental illness could be part of it but they could also not be the problem. It could simply be 2 angry people. One who most likely has a history of domestic abuse and the other a man who was the eternal victim, always believing that he was being wronged by people and racism obviously played a role in his case as he stated so in his manifesto that he sent to the news station after the killing.


I'm not sure that either of these killers were schizophrenic, bi-polar, multiple personality disorder or anything else. They may have simply been 2 men with anger issues.


If the VA killer had planned all of this and been a KKK member people would have said, "This isn't a mental disorder, this is just a racist SOB."

If the VA killer had planned all of this and been a Radical Islamic Terrorist or Al Qaeda member people wouldn't have immediately said he had mental health problems, they would have said he was a radical idealist who was carrying out his plot.


We don't talk about the 9/11 attacks as being carried out by 19 men with mental health disorders, we say it was 19 men with radical religious ideals.


The Nazis killed millions of innocent people and the Nazis aren't considered thousands of men and women with mental illnesses.



People say that Nidal Malik Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter was a radical religious idealist while the military labeled it workplace violence. No one says he had mental health issues.




Perhaps you can say that someone willing to kill many people for whatever reason have a mental illness. Whether this is correct or not, I don't know.



So, as much as I'm tired of hearing that guns are the problem I'm also tired of people immediately saying that it has to do with mental illness when it may not do that. It may just sadly just be a very angry person.


I think some people want catharsis in being able to say it was a crazy person or what not but that doesn't mean it's true.


Being an angry person isn't illegal. And being an angry person doesn't make you fail a gun background check. So don't be surprised when people with no criminal or mental history get guns and commit crimes, they may simply be very angry people.
usmarine0352_2005 is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 01:32 PM   #2
AlexanderA
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 27, 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,396
Where does that leave us in terms of who might be disqualified from owning a gun? At least mental illness can (sometimes) be quantified ahead of time. Anger issues, not so much.
AlexanderA is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 01:45 PM   #3
usmarine0352_2005
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 21, 2005
Posts: 2,717
That's the problem.


Mis-diagnosing someone or mis-representing something solely to be able to quantify it isn't logical, reasonable, or fair.


Look at all of these gang-bangers shooting and murdering multiple people out of anger and respect. They aren't mentally insane. Just people who have no respect for human life. No ones calling for them to have mental health evaluations. Plus, many of them are 15-20 years old and can't legally own a pistol. So a mental health check stating they wouldn't pass a background check wouldn't help at all anyway.
usmarine0352_2005 is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 02:23 PM   #4
GJSchulze
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 3, 2013
Posts: 389
Show me one case where a potential mass killer has been detected/diagnosed before the event and stopped. I can show many cases where people have thought one of these killers was dangerous, but someone decided he wasn't. Until he was.

The fact that the government wants to classify veterans and people on social security who need a financial proxy as prohibited persons indicates to me that they haven't got a clue how to detect dangerous people.

I submit that it's all security theater and they will never be able to predict enough, if any, mass killers.
GJSchulze is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 02:42 PM   #5
Sniper66
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 22, 2012
Location: Kansas
Posts: 919
There are many people in every state and 100s of cities that are detained, deemed dangerous to self or others and hospitalized involuntarily. In the past there were many more. But, because most states were forced to change these laws and limit the circumstances under which someone could be legally detained, our streets are not as safe as they once were. Then you add our victim mentality, stir in a sense of entitlement and you have a recipe for mayhem. Most do not end with murdered reporters or mass murders, but 1,000s of assaults and 100s of less notorious murders are ignored by our media and, sadly, accepted as unavoidable conditions of our American landscape. When they do at last become aroused by a heinous event, they blame guns.
Sniper66 is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 02:50 PM   #6
tarosean
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 4,284
Quote:
People are saying that this has to do with guns and mental health.
Cause in today's society pointing fingers and laying blame is what they do. This guy went "postal" as they used to say. They dont seem to realize that no law on earth will stop that kind of attack.
tarosean is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 03:06 PM   #7
Red Wind
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 13, 2013
Location: Rock Harbor,Florida
Posts: 1,306
Some people are just plain evil. Yesterday's killer, filming his own murders and carving the initials of his victims on the hollow points that killed them,certainly falls into that category.

And it was unstoppable. A slow moving ambush is still an ambush.
__________________
"Beyond a certain point all dangers are equal."
-Raymond Chandler The Long Goodbye 1953
Red Wind is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 03:12 PM   #8
huntsman
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 11, 2003
Location: ohio's northcoast
Posts: 2,862
Some people have a hard time accepting that there are evil people who wish to do harm to their fellow man so in a PC climate they try to rationalize and look for the "reason"
__________________
An LCP is my CC (constant companion)

"Tis better to miss with style,than to hit with bad form"-Colonel Peter Hawker
huntsman is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 03:24 PM   #9
Red Wind
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 13, 2013
Location: Rock Harbor,Florida
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper66
There are many people in every state and 100s of cities that are detained, deemed dangerous to self or others and hospitalized involuntarily. In the past there were many more. But, because most states were forced to change these laws and limit the circumstances under which someone could be legally detained, our streets are not as safe as they once were.
On the contrary, our streets are safer than they have been in at least 50 years.
1980 was the high point with over 10 murders per 100,000 population in the United States. By 1993 it was down to 9.6.

By 2013 the ratio was cut in half to 4.5. All this with twice as many guns in Americans hands in the last 20 years. Every time I hear the argument that there are too many guns on the street, I give them these numbers. Facts, not hype.

See this graph:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873729.html
__________________
"Beyond a certain point all dangers are equal."
-Raymond Chandler The Long Goodbye 1953
Red Wind is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 03:41 PM   #10
grter
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2, 2013
Posts: 371
Here we go again with the ignorance. Let me educate you Sniper you are more likely to be victimized by someone who is not mentally ill.

No the streets are not rampant with bloodshed because they let all the crazys out of the luny bin. Crime is on the rise for the same reason it always is the world over.

When the economy is bad and mom and dad have not time to spend with the kids because they are both out to work all day and night the kids are raised outside their care in places like for instance the streets.

A good solid citizen has a good solid job and a respectable family has a respectable income so mom or dad can stay home to raise, teach, and feed the kids otherwise you get this erosion of moral values and low regard for human well being.

This ex reporter who MURDERED these people would probably have never got a job with a TV news station unless he had a squeeky clean record and high recommendations.

A firearms purchase background check most likely would not have kept a firearm out his hands. Your accusations against the mentally ill as being the main perpetrators of firearms related crimes are not true and totally irrelevent to this situation (the shooting of the reporter and cameraman.)

What we have to worry about is when crimes like this are committed by people such as this ex reporter who are considered respectable upstanding citizens almost beyond reproach, someone is going to make the argument that guns should finally be restricted on all levels to anyone.

When these people resort to other means to murder people then an argument that all people in general should be screened and investigated more often with a much more reduced standard of probable cause will be made .

The zealots will give the public assurances of peace, order, and happiness if they only can have a chance to use their own discretion much more often to strip people of their rights for the good of all.

Do you see where this is all heading. I will also say there are a lot of mentally ill people out their who are great individuals and can really help us belive it or not.

You are painting gun owners as ignorant zealots on a mission to scapegoat mentally ill people for all the problems of our society and are trying to use a wide brush to do it.

We need all the help we can get in overturning unreasonable firearms restrictions and the erosion of our basic civil liberties protections as well.

Alienating the mentally ill is a very bad idea a bad idea for us a very bad mistake for the NRA and anyone who wishes to continue to enjoy the fresh air of freedom.

Last edited by grter; August 27, 2015 at 04:07 PM.
grter is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 03:59 PM   #11
Sam1911
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 30,659
Quote:
Crime is on the rise for the same reason it always is the world over.
Someone once said, "here we go again with the ignorance." That guy was RIGHT. Crime is lower than ever, even with these sensationalist outliers in the mix.

Read RedWind's post No.9.
__________________
-- Sam

"...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)
-D. Stanhope

Sights Practical Shooters -- IDPA

My Knife Showroom
For Sale
Sam1911 is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 04:13 PM   #12
2ifbyC
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 259
People say what they want others to believe. Say it loud enough and long enough and you will bring the non-thinkers into your fold. Say it after an emotionally charged event and it will increase the effectiveness of your message. Regrettably a large segment of Americans are non-thinkers and accept this propaganda.
__________________
NRA Patron Member
The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. - Thomas Jefferson
2ifbyC is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 04:13 PM   #13
grter
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2, 2013
Posts: 371
You may be right crime may be lower thats good but it could be much much much better.

Keep in mind stats are always cooked by police commanders to satisfy the local polititians so I don't religeously cling to stats as evidence that crime is really as low as said.

I like to think positively but koolaid can become very diluted when what you see does not seem to match what they say.
grter is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 04:18 PM   #14
JohnBT
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 26, 2002
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 13,148
"A firearms purchase background check most likely would not have kept a firearm out his hands."

BATFE has confirmed to ABC News that the murderer passed the background check at the store when he bought the Glock 19. Background checks in Virginia are run by the State Police. They utilize numerous databases including the federal one.
JohnBT is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 04:25 PM   #15
JohnBT
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 26, 2002
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 13,148
And you don't think they were cooking the crime stats when the numbers were off the charts?

The mentally ill are more likely to be crime victims than perps. That's based on my 37+ years of working with individuals with disabilities as well as the national stats. And my girlfriend's 25 years too for that matter and she does part-time employee assistance counseling, marital counseling and psychiatric hospital intakes in addition to her full-time counseling job.

She's busy. I'm retired and currently babysitting her new puppy.
JohnBT is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 04:57 PM   #16
Red Wind
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 13, 2013
Location: Rock Harbor,Florida
Posts: 1,306
Congrats on the new puppy. And I agree. I don't think the FBI has been cooking any stats since 1950!
__________________
"Beyond a certain point all dangers are equal."
-Raymond Chandler The Long Goodbye 1953
Red Wind is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 05:02 PM   #17
Lord Teapot
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 9, 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 608
no more steps back, no mental health restrictions, no vague anger management restrictions, no universal background checks. enough is enough. no more. violent crime is dropping, no need to restrict guns, what we're doing is clearly working regardless of what the propaganda talking heads, or our resident 'high road' thinnly veiled antis say.

Lord Teapot is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 05:36 PM   #18
Red Wind
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 13, 2013
Location: Rock Harbor,Florida
Posts: 1,306
I totally agree, LT. That excellent graph says it all.
__________________
"Beyond a certain point all dangers are equal."
-Raymond Chandler The Long Goodbye 1953
Red Wind is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 05:47 PM   #19
orionengnr
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 3, 2005
Posts: 5,163
Quote:
It could simply be 2 angry people.
Anger is a normal human emotion.
Being unable (or unwilling) to control yourself, and subsequently acting on that anger to a degree where it causes you to kill people (and yourself)...there is nothing "normal" about that.

People who kill other people (absent exigent circumstances such as self-defense) are not mentally "healthy" by definition.

I don't have a degree in Psychology or Psychiatry, but the above seems pretty apparent to me.

Quote:
You may be right crime may be lower thats good but it could be much much much better.
It can always be better. Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good.
The trend is in the right direction.
orionengnr is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 05:51 PM   #20
Sam1911
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 30,659
Quote:
You may be right crime may be lower thats good but it could be much much much better.
I don't actually agree with that. I don't think the human race will function without a level of criminal activity, and these rates are extremely low. There is some level at which crime simply will not get any lower, and trying harder and harder to force it lower will simply require more and more extreme levels of oppression and social disruption to try and enact.

Very much like the magnum rifle conundrum: as you move up in cartridges looking to get the top end of velocity you'll find you're adding 30% more powder to go 5% faster, and beyond a certain powder level the rifle just doesn't work any more.

Sure, if we figure out how to read minds and rub out members of society who are found to be planning to commit crimes, we could lower the crime rate to near zero. But none of us would ever agree to live like that.

Maybe if we put more people in prison, outlaw guns, require mandatory psych tests for everyone each year, require mood-stabilizing drugs for all adolescents, screen every person for illegal drugs and alcohol abuse once a week, and put government informants in each home, we could push that crime number down to 3.5 per 100,000 or whatever. Is it worth the costs? Why would ANYONE believe it is?
__________________
-- Sam

"...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)
-D. Stanhope

Sights Practical Shooters -- IDPA

My Knife Showroom
For Sale
Sam1911 is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 05:55 PM   #21
Sam1911
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: October 22, 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 30,659
Quote:
Anger is a normal emotion.
Being unable (or unwilling) to control yourself, and subsequently acting on that anger to a degree where it causes you to kill people (and yourself)...there is nothing "normal" about that.
Really? Seems like that has been one of the most normal, consistent, predictable things across all societies, ever. About as normal as birth and death and love and hate and prejudice and most other human emotions. And only an order of magnitude or so less commonly acted out.

Quote:
People who kill other people (absent exigent circumstances such as self-defense) are not mentally "healthy" by definition.
Even the courts don't try to say that. Plenty of perfectly mentally healthy people commit murder. They do it for irrational reasons, sometimes, and for perfectly rational ones at other times. It is still "wrong" but it isn't necessarily any sign of sickness.
__________________
-- Sam

"...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)
-D. Stanhope

Sights Practical Shooters -- IDPA

My Knife Showroom
For Sale
Sam1911 is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 07:18 PM   #22
danez71
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 17, 2009
Posts: 2,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1911 View Post
I don't actually agree with that. I don't think the human race will function without a level of criminal activity, and these rates are extremely low. There is some level at which crime simply will not get any lower, and trying harder and harder to force it lower will simply require more and more extreme levels of oppression and social disruption to try and enact.

Very much like the magnum rifle conundrum: as you move up in cartridges looking to get the top end of velocity you'll find you're adding 30% more powder to go 5% faster, and beyond a certain powder level the rifle just doesn't work any more.

Sure, if we figure out how to read minds and rub out members of society who are found to be planning to commit crimes, we could lower the crime rate to near zero. But none of us would ever agree to live like that.

Maybe if we put more people in prison, outlaw guns, require mandatory psych tests for everyone each year, require mood-stabilizing drugs for all adolescents, screen every person for illegal drugs and alcohol abuse once a week, and put government informants in each home, we could push that crime number down to 3.5 per 100,000 or whatever. Is it worth the costs? Why would ANYONE believe it is?

Ahhhh, Yes.

The point of diminishing returns will soon turn into counter-productive if continually pushed.
__________________
.

Ask yourself, Is the goal to get more states to support the 2A or to voluntarily handover to the Anti's one state at a time?

The US was founded because people ran away and left,... However, the Constitution came to be because we STOPPED RUNNING AND FOUGHT for our Rights.
danez71 is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 07:49 PM   #23
jcwit
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 19, 2007
Location: Great state of Indiana
Posts: 7,700
Today from youngster on up thru all schooling kids are taught to suppress anger.
Then at some time someone finally blows.
Amazing!
__________________
U.S. Army Veteran
1967-1975
jcwit is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 08:16 PM   #24
X-Rap
Member
 
 
Join Date: September 23, 2006
Posts: 5,327
I don't think we've seen the last of these "first person" video shootings and I don't see it helping our cause.
Imagine Columbine or VT with a GoPro or even a smartphone camera. Technology is reaching a point in which one could project a whole massacre in real time and nobody could do a thing to stop it. Put 5 or 10 of those up and we are in trouble.
__________________
In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king
X-Rap is offline  
Old August 27, 2015, 08:56 PM   #25
Red Wind
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 13, 2013
Location: Rock Harbor,Florida
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Rap
Put 5 or 10 of those up and we are in trouble.
Maybe. But for 240 years we've always managed to get out of trouble and get stronger. I'm an optimist. We'll prevail.
__________________
"Beyond a certain point all dangers are equal."
-Raymond Chandler The Long Goodbye 1953
Red Wind is offline  
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.