Recent Local RKBA Losses(NY,Ulster County)

[hexidismal]

For those of you who are not familiar with New York State laws ( Not NYC laws ) regarding the purchase of handguns, let me first do a quick preface. To purchase a handgun in NYS, one must first of course have a handgun permit to begin with. Upon buying a handgun from a dealer, that dealer must give you receipt of sale, but can not give you the handgun yet. One must first take the sales slip to their licensing division, who will in turn for a small fee add the handgun to the permit and provide the purchaser in a County dependent manner with a pick-up slip which must be taken back to the seller before the handgun may be fully transferred.

Now, it's the aforementioned "County dependent manner", which prompts this post. Depending on how gun friendly the county your permit is issued in is, greatly affects how quickly you may acquire your new handgun. Ulster County, which I live in, has until recently been known to be one of the more reasonable ones concerning RKBA. This was due to a good Sheriff's Department, and a good constitution friendly Judge. More recently however Judge Cavanaugh has been promoted, and is now up in Albany doing bigger things. Unfortunately there's a New one of both, Sherrif and Issuing Judge. As I understand it, it's more specifically the new judge which in a very short frame of time has made not only permits, but also purchases far more difficult for all local law abiding citizens.

Firstly, she has made it a requirement as part of the process of acquiring a pistol permit, that all applicants must be personally interviewed by appointment with the issuing judge. This of course makes the already long and expensive process, that much longer and more inconvenient. Not only that, New York being a "may issue" state, that leaves the judge, and a very anti-gun judge at that, a huge potential for discrimination. It seems highly likely that she may stop issuing new permits altogether to those not requiring them for professional use.

Secondly, and more applicable to me personally as a current permit holder, is that this judge has also already changed our county specific purchase process with no intention other than to make it more annoying. We Ulster County permit holders, until about 2 weeks ago, were able to get our pick-up slip ( as mentioned in the first paragraph ) right then and there at the licensing office upon bringing them a sales receipt from an FFL. This Judge though, has seen fit to make each individual handgun purchase require an issuing Judge's signature. And oh boy, it does get better... The amount of time the issuing judge has to sign a purchase slip seems at this point to be entirely indeterminate and unlimited ! No additional background checking or anything of the sort is done, so as I said it serves absolutely no purpose other than to grind the process of law abiding Ulster County residents buying handguns to a big red taped halt.

Very Angry,
- hexidismal

[armedpolak]

blood boiling!!!
another reason why i moved from NYC to FL.

[Old Fuff]

I feel for you, but frankly - New York is... well New York. I don't know if there are enough effected handgun owners in the county to vote this judge and/or sheriff out of office in a close election or not. But if there are not then you have two alternatives. Either put up with it, or move to a different county or even out of state.

Getting mad won't make a bit of difference. The sheriff and judge couldn't care less.

[brufener]

regarding the purchase of handguns

New York being a "may issue" state

Can you clarify something for me? I know New York is "may issue" for concealed carry permits, but is New York "may issue" for handgun ownership? That is, can the judge decide that joe citizen, who qualifies federally to own a handgun, cannot own a handgun?

[hexidismal]

Can you clarify something for me? I know New York is "may issue" for concealed carry permits, but is New York "may issue" for handgun ownership? That is, can the judge decide that joe citizen, who qualifies federally to own a handgun, cannot own a handgun?

Hi brufener. Yes, a licensing judge/officer can make that decision, because in New York a CCW permit and the right to handgun ownership and purchase are one and the same. A handgun can't be bought without a permit, and the CCW permit is the only permit available. There does exist also a 'Premise license' which generally applies specifically to businesses, but I'm told even by licensing office that this type of permit is dated and is almost never issued. ( at least not to a private citizen who is not a business owner ) Which makes sense seeing as under current law, that alternate type of permit would not allow for any legal way to transport a handgun to or from the licensed premises.

[CNYCacher]

Can you clarify something for me? I know New York is "may issue" for concealed carry permits, but is New York "may issue" for handgun ownership? That is, can the judge decide that joe citizen, who qualifies federally to own a handgun, cannot own a handgun?

Since you need a permit before you can even OWN a handgun: yes, that is exactly the case.

[carebear]

Start gathering data now for your future "equal protection" lawsuit.

Prepare to submit FOI requests for numbers on who and what kind of people are getting approved and who aren't. If any trending data pop up you may have an argument.

Or just vote the buggers out.

[brufener]

I knew you had to jump through a lot of hoops to get a handgun in NY, but I didn't realize they could deny you handgun ownerhsip for any or no reason.

Is there something called a "target" permit? It seems like I remember reading about a lady in a wheelchair who shot a mugger on the street in NY; police said it was ok that she had a gun because she was on the way to the range and she had a "target" permit.

I agree with CNYcatcher - if only the well-connected are getting permits, you can probably show that few minorities are getting permits, leading to an equal protection lawsuit.

BTW - I don't live in NY, but I have friends that do.

[gezzer]

NY elected Hillary, what do you expect?

[kimber guy]

Here in Suffolk County we have a "Target & Hunting" permit. You can carry to & from the range but unloaded. I got my permit in the city before moving to Suffolk 18 yrs. ago & had no problem getting it. Don't get me wrong they do suck in NYC & will never go back, & now with Spitzser(?) & Cuomo in Albany I'm hoping to go to Pa.

[Dan from MI]

This is a good lesson for all of us to remember how important our local elections are.

The elections for Prosecutor/DA, Sheriff, County Commission, County Clerk, Mayor, and City Council all can affect our rights.

In my state, we are now at "shall issue", but still have to deal with local government officials. We also have to go to our local PD for "safety inspections" aka registration/puchase permit.

Let's not skip our local races

[LAR-15]

Just buy rifles and shotguns.

[chinacave]

They are based on the proven fact that your level of responsibility, maturity and danger to others is determined by location. The same of course is true for the applicability the US Constitution.

For example; I live in Westchester county, which I should explain is the first Co. north of New York City. That means I am pretty irresponsible, immature, and just this side of a deranged killer. So I can carry ONLY to and from a target range. (This after the sequence as described above to get the pistol permit, 6 months, 4 personal references, about $150 not counting the permit course. Didn't have to talk to the judge, but I am sure that that swell idea will migrate here from Ulster Co. in short order.)

If I travel to New York City, well, as you can probobly tell, I would just turn into a spray and pray Glock fowty gangbanger before you could say "fuggeddabouit". Its like real estate - location, location, location. In the City, only the very rich and famous are responsible. Everyone else is a total menace. But the food is good.

Now, the funny thing is, my house is about 2 miles from the border of Connecticut. In fact, the two ranges I belong to are in Ridgefield and Danbury Ct. A refreshing transformation occurs every time I drive east into Connecticut. I become very responsible, acquire remarkably good judgment, and the right to defend myself (with an out of state permit, took 3 weeks totally by mail, 'bout $35 if I recall.)

I have never figured out if I travel north in my own state if the "Target" restriction on my permit would still apply. If I recall, if a fellow New Yorker from upstate with a full carry permit comes to Westchester, they can still carry (they are still warm and fuzzy from living upstate, while if I went north, I am still full of danger and hate from living here full time.)

I am amazed that this system does not yet apply to cars, or small planes for that matter.





























//////////bit of bitter sarcasm off.

[hexidismal]

Quoting myself, from the initial post

The amount of time the issuing judge has to sign a purchase slip seems at this point to be entirely indeterminate and unlimited !

Well, and it seems I was absolutely correct, and they are forcing the wait to be as long as possible.
I have now personally attempted to purchase a new handgun under these new county restrictions. ( It's a pre-lock S&W686 Plus ) After putting down the money and receiving my sales receipt on Saturday, I brought it in to my county licensing office first thing this monday morning. 12/19. Paid my usual $3 fee for a permit revision. On the table there was a notice explaining that there would be "extended delays" in any and all permit revisions. I of course asked if they had any idea how long the wait might be to get my purchase slip. I was told, "There's no way to say , it could be three weeks, could be more".
So we've gone from being allowed to get our handguns the same day as purchase, straight into 3 weeks to maybe never. Great.

[rkh]

What's the legal status of guns purchased out-of-state?

'Sounds like you need a vacation.

[hacksaw]

I feel your pain Hex...So very glad I left lower Ulster 4 years ago and moved to S.C. Give it a try, lots of N.Y. refugee's here. Real Estate prices are VERY reasonable and the gun laws will make you giddy!

[ricci316]

I knew you had to jump through a lot of hoops to get a handgun in NY, but I didn't realize they could deny you handgun ownerhsip for any or no reason.

They actually can't. If you are denied a permit they must give a reason. You may then appeal to the county permit issuer to be reconsidered for a permit. Of course, there is also a time limit on how long the county can take to either issue or deny your permit and that doesn't always work out either. I hate this state.

[jeep-2]

NY elected Hillary, what do you expect?
NY was out of main steam America before Hillary was born

[AirForceShooter]

I left Westchester 4 years ago for sunny Florida.
What a difference.

AFS

[gyp_c2]

...but they aren't denying anything yet.

They are just stating there will be an undetermined length of delay...right?

...cheesy...

[Whitewolf 508]

Move across the river to Dutchess County. The longest I have had to wait is 10 days and that was because the judge was on vacation.

[perpster]

in New York a CCW permit and the right to handgun ownership and purchase are one and the same. A handgun can't be bought without a permit, and the CCW permit is the only permit available.

Sorry Hex, but this is absolutely incorrect. CCW is NOT the only handgun license in NYS. You can much more easily get a premises permit for your home or place of business than a carry permit. While premises permits are also "may" issue, they're rarely if ever denied unless there is a criminal or mental history (of course, that may change locally with the judge you now have).

From http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf :

"The licensing officer may, in his discretion, add restrictions to the license, limiting the places where the handgun may be kept or carried. No demonstration of need to possess is required to obtain an “on premises only,” license valid for one’s home or place of business. A demonstration of need must be shown, however, for a license not restricted to one of those locations.
An on premises only license authorizes the possession of a handgun only at the location written on the license. It does not authorize the holder to take such handgun to any other place. (It should be noted further that an on premises only license technically does not authorize the holder even to transport the handgun from its place of purchase to the location stated on the license.)
Applications for licenses must be acted upon within 6 months after presentment. If there is a delay, there must be written notice to the applicant stating the reasons. Such delay may be excused for good cause only."

[Molon Labe]

Now that we've freed Iraq, I wonder when we're going to free Neu York?

[perpster]

After the last elections, not anytime soon.

[shield20]

Shoot - and a couple months ago i was jealous of Ulster 'cause of the instant turn-around on new purchases, while here in Orange I had to wait for the judge's sig (always the Friday following the week after they receive the ammendment forms).

I originally got my permit in Ulster (full-carry), back then ('86) a conservative judge had taken over and was pretty much rubber stamping them (3 months). I was also lucky to transfer it as unrestricted to Orange Cnty in '88, where I currently live.

Sucks you guys got that lib, hopefully she'll get what she deserves next time around - a boot out! Still, just wait till Spitzer, Cuomo, and Hillary & Schumer, et. al. kick in this coming year - we will all get screwed one way or another! I already started stock-piling.