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Old April 4, 2008, 05:25 AM   #1551
papajohn
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Overwhelmed at work, eh? I guess that would explain you posting in the middle of the night.......

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Old April 4, 2008, 05:27 AM   #1552
Nematocyst
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Hey, dude.

Yeah. This is the end of my day, and functionally (at least this week) the end of my week.
(No meetings planned tomorrow, going to PDX this weekend
for business and music by one of my favorite groups.)

I mostly work afternoons/evenings until around 10 - 11.
(Most of my meetings are with clients after their 9-5.)
Dinner for me is usually from 11 - 12, followed by leisure reading about guns until bedtime.

But this begs a question: what's a guy from MO doing up this late?
<calculating> Central zone, must be around 3 am there.
Oh, wait: no doubt reloading some 170 gr .30-30.
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Old April 4, 2008, 06:50 AM   #1553
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Wrong again, Reindeer!

Working midnight shift in the inner city, where there's a bad guy behind every dumpster. (My PD FTO used to say that all the time.) After 0800, I'll be home, reloading a gazillion rounds of 44 Special and 45ACP. BTW, the vaunted Papajohn 30-30 load is a 150-grain Core-Lokt, not a 170. You ARE tired, aren't you?

Nighty-Night, Nem.

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Old April 4, 2008, 10:05 AM   #1554
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Papajohn,
You got a chuckle out of me. My sarge used to say "Turn on the lights and the roaches will run". I don't know how many times he proved it by cruising past a playground or ally at night and just flipping on the lightbar for a minute...and 80% of the time SOMEBODY would bolt out of the shadows and make a run for it. Hell half the time we hadn't even seen them until they ran.
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Old April 4, 2008, 05:32 PM   #1555
Nematocyst
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<just up, yawns before coffee ... >

Quote:
...the vaunted Papajohn 30-30 load is a 150-grain Core-Lokt, not a 170.
Ah, interesting.

Now, I know you've told me that before, probably even in this thread -
so many details, so little time and memory space on the cytoplasmic hard drive .

But humor me, PJ: remind me why 150 instead of 170 gr? I read soooo many posts
here and elsewhere by 336 owners that swear 170s are more true than 150s.

Is it because it takes your deer better, or shoots better in your 336, or ... ?

Of course, I'm sure that reloading them makes a huge difference over store-bought rnds.

OK, coffee time, then to work.
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Old April 4, 2008, 05:48 PM   #1556
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*holds hand up as one of those that groups way better with the 170gr Fed store bought fodder.*


But reloading 30/30 in this house is now very close at hand. Set of dies, some powder, and it's on baby!!
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Old April 4, 2008, 06:46 PM   #1557
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The answer as to why lies with the bullet itself..........the Remington Core-Lokt. AKA "The Deadliest Mushroom In The Forest", per the company's ads, and attested to by thousands upon thousands who have used it successfully on deer. It shoots well in most guns, and does deer down and dead right dere.

My epiphany came when I was given a box of 20-year old factory ammo, shortly after I found my 336RC at a pawn shop, 40 years old and pristine, yet plain as a mud fence. No checkering, no figured grain......just a rifle with nice lines. I fired a five-shot group with that ammo at 50 yards, and they were about two inches high, and basically all in the same ragged hole. The rest of the groups were a tad larger, but very consistent, and I faunched a desire to acquire a shameless quantity of those same bullets. So I got on the Midway site, and the rest is history. I happened upon the load in the manner best befitting a blind hog who finds the tastiest acorn in the forest.........simple stupid luck. I scooped up 2.2cc of IMR-4895 in a Lee scoop, dumped it in the case, mashed a bullet into place, and Factory-Crimped it. The next trip to the range was equally gratifying, and the Papajohn load was born.


Further testing was a waste of time and ammo, but it was fun.............


Personally, I think the 150 will do anything the 170's will unless you're going after elk or big bears. The Papajohn load is intended to be a deer-basher extraordinaire, that also works on smaller stuff. It shoots flat, but is not a firewall handload. IIRC, it's about two grains under most maximum data I have. I like it because it's accurate, incredibly easy to load, and at the time, the bulk bullets were about a dime apiece. Fortunately, I laid in quite a stash, and still have a few thousand. The prices now are enough to make me faint and drool, and they're only gonna get worse.

N4Z, most 30-30 ammo from the factories is excellent stuff. But once you start handloading, you owe it to yourself to try this one. I have yet to hear of a rifle that flat-out doesn't like it.

PJ
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Old April 4, 2008, 08:34 PM   #1558
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I've have three 336's and had another. All of those except one shoot the 170 grainers better than the 150's. That is until I stole PapaJohn's recipe. Now I have a load that all of them will shoot an iron sight 50 yard group at or below and 1".

I've managed to come close to the accuracy of the PJ load but not quite match it with the published starting load for IMR 3031. As I've mentioned before PJ has horded all the 4895 and the rest of us have to pay full price if we can find it... Pretty versatile rifle powder so if you find it you can find a load for a lot of different rifle calibers with it..

Even with the price increases the bulk Remington 150 is among the least expensive quality bullets out there. As PJ stated they have a long history good performance on deer.
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Old April 4, 2008, 08:53 PM   #1559
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Post 1557 by PapaJohn is hereby entered into club archives and hall of fame for excellence in writing and reporting details.

You missed your calling, PJ: you should'a been a lawyer.

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Old April 5, 2008, 10:55 PM   #1560
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Talking nice shooting

Hey Papajohn,
Nice shooting, but are you sure you didn't shoot the plain white paper first and then draw in the sharpie marker crosshairs later (he-he-he)?

Jusk having some fun with you, realy that is some fine shooting. I'm jellous since I have not been shooting for awile. Too busy with the kids and all of their activities.

I wonder if I have a life of my own sometimes anymore?

I love them, but I NEED to get to the range.

e'trode
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Old April 5, 2008, 11:19 PM   #1561
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Electrode, your response is EXACTLY why I love these forums......I NEVER would have thought to draw the lines later...... I bet my next groups are all PERFECTLY centered!

I like three-shot groups because I have a short attention span, and if I fire a five-shot group, I usually ruin it. As long as I stick with three, I can stay focused long enough to let the rifle sing.

And if you think these groups are a fluke, I'll show you what my 35 Remmy did ONCE. I know it will never happen again, it was the combination of perfect range conditions, patience on my part, and a damn fine batch of reloaded ammo. I hold the 35/180 Speer Softpoint in high regard, and this is why. Again, three shots at 50 yards, from my 336-C. It's the one on the left.................(My apologies for the crummy picture, I need to re-shoot this one!)

PJ

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Old April 6, 2008, 02:16 AM   #1562
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PJ, that's pretty impressive.

Your results are the best motivation I've read for reloading.
The reloading companies should use your results to sell their products.

You could make millions ... well, at least millions of pennies.
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Old April 6, 2008, 03:02 AM   #1563
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I'll throw another vote in for the Speer bullet in 35 Remington PapaJohn. I've got a target downstairs that I can cover a group with a quarter. And that was on the starting load with Varget powder. Need to "borrow" the camera from work on Monday and take a snapshot
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Old April 6, 2008, 03:07 AM   #1564
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You know, something just clicked for me about this statement by PJ:

Quote:
The answer as to why lies with the bullet itself.
A light bulb came on a few minutes ago as I was reflecting on that.

Yes! Of course the answer is the bullet.

The extreme metaphor that came to mind was this:

Put a bunch of jet fuel (metaphorical for gunpowder)
behind two classes of objects of the same mass:

1) 5 large igneous rocks
2) 5 F-16s

Guess which will fly more accurately w/ consistency.

Yeah, I get it:
Pay at least as much attention to the projectile
as to the fuel projecting the projectile.
Details - even tiny ones - matter.

Why didn't I get this before?
<Rhetorical question>

I've understood the importance of details to systems for years -
in systems theory, it's called sensitivity to initial conditions -
but it hadn't clicked for me that it'd be important for bullets.

Just goes to show:
I may be slow, but I ain't stupid.

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Old April 6, 2008, 09:35 AM   #1565
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Nem, a man of Science such as yourself would probably really enjoy reloading. All sorts of factors come into play - temperature, components, altitude, overall length, brass thickness variances, crimp, alloy, powder volume, drop tubes .... Throw on-game performance and individual gun preferences into the mix and you're reloading room turns into a lab for a mad scientist.

We all strive to be the one that discovers a "PapaJohn Load" that seems to work well in pretty much every 30-30 known to man but that rarely happens.

I'll agree with you on PJ's influence on my wallet too. He's one of the biggest levergun enablers our there. He certainly is deserving of a commission. I know I'll buy a 336 in 35 Remington because of him.
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Old April 6, 2008, 09:49 AM   #1566
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Hey pards, these postal matches have been a lot of fun and I have an idea for a future match that I'd like to bounce off of you guys. We in the 336 club know all about the virtues and versatility of our Marlins, why not test it against some of the other popular general purpose, truck gun etc rifles?

I'm thinking a Leverguns vs. SKS/AK vs. Mosin Nagant vs. whatever we define as a truck gun postal match during the summer this year. 50 and 100 yard divisions maybe a 200yard side match. What do you think?
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Old April 6, 2008, 10:48 AM   #1567
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Truck gun postal match

Ha,
Shootists against spray gunners! Bringum on. Worth goin out and buying a CF (can only picture a thutty-thutty), never dreamed they were this accurate, just to participate. My local pusher has some right at $280-300.
TaKe CaRe
Ted
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Old April 6, 2008, 12:28 PM   #1568
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TGPM sounds great, Mo.

Funny this: I started looking (again) at 336s while I was trying to decide on a "truck gun".
I'd looked at Savage Stevens 200, Ruger Frontier and a small group of others.

Then I read George Hill's posts and essays on CARs: cowboy action rifles.

As they say, the rest is history ...
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Old April 6, 2008, 08:27 PM   #1569
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Oh, so now I've become an "Enabler"? Is that another word for "Scapegoat"? I'd bleat, but I'm busy eating tin cans right now........

Well, if I can't be a Role Model I can always serve as a Bad Example. I have a lot more experience with that anyway.

There's only a few things in life I'm much good at, and one of them seems to be handloading. I keep hearing that Lee equipment is cheapo junk, plastic and aluminum castings, yada yada yada. Be that as it may, it's still quite serviceable, and I don't own anything else, especially dies. My press is a 25-year old 3-hole Lee Turret, my powder measures (including the one that threw the charges used when I fired that 35Rem target) are designated for each caliber, and rarely changed. I don't measure bullet runout, don't turn necks, or weigh each charge, or segregate bullets, or trim brass. I tend to load and shoot, and keep the ones that shoot best. Pretty basic. And more proof that Marlin barrels are VERY good.

So if anyone says a Levergun Match again those "Other" truck guns wouldn't be fair, my response is that my ammo isn't anything fancy, it's normal case prep and dumped charges and bulk bullets. The challenge for the Truckies is to find the ammo that their gun likes, which is really ALL I have done.

With that, I hereby toss this gauntlet-thingy at their furry-toed feet!

Papajohn
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Old April 8, 2008, 01:21 AM   #1570
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Quote:
eb1, I've never tried the Hodgdon version, but I've always gotten good results with the IMR stuff. I first tried it in the early 80's in a 7.7mm Arisaka, because the load manual I had said it gave good accuracy in a variety of medium-sized cartridges. At one time, dozens of commercial rounds and nearly all US military ammo was loaded with it, with the likely exception of 5.56 ammo. I use it for 223, 30-30, 35 Rem, 375 Winchester, and still load it in the 7.7, as well!

Some folks seeem to think I'm hoarding it, but that's not true.......I just get really insecure when I have less than 20 pounds on hand!

Papajohn

PJ, I got me some of that IMR4895 to try the PapaJohn load with my 150 Core-Lokts. Looking at the starting load from Hodgdon, your 30.2 grains is 1.3 grains under the published starting load. I wonder if the lot has changed?

I do recall you saying that the load was a fluke (kinda) from your powder dispenser. Is that right? Nevertheless I am going to try your load data in my 30-30 this weekend.

I will let you know what the final results are.

Eb1
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Old April 8, 2008, 02:48 AM   #1571
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Quote:
Nevertheless I am going to try your load data in my 30-30 this weekend.

I will let you know what the final results are.
Science in action.

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Old April 8, 2008, 04:56 PM   #1572
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Just another case of different loading manuals showing different figures. Looking at the Speer #12, their maximum load with a 150-grain bullet is 31.0 grains, so my load is less than a grain from top-end, according to them. (Of course, they tested the load in a Winchester, which might explain a lot....)

My 2006 IMR manual shows 33.5 grains as max with a 150 Sierra, and my ancient Du Pont book shows a max of 35.5 with the Remington bullet. That also shows 38,000 cup max, and a velocity of 2315, from a 23" barrel.

All I can tell you is that the load is safe in my 1964 336-RC, and the accuracy is generally enough to make one sit up and take notice. I haven't bought any more IMR-4895 lately, so the pipeline should be filling back up.

I was originally trying to duplicate the factory load, decided 4895 was worth a try, so I measured the bullet, figured out how much would be inside the case at nominal OAL, and filled the case to that point. I weighed the charge, and it was almost exactly 30 grains. I grabbed the 2.2cc scoop out of my Lee set, loaded ten rounds, and weighed the charges. They were very consistent, and right in the same ballpark, so I dumped the charges back into the cases and finished loading them. The results at the range STILL make me laugh. Mixed brass, dumped charges, and bulk bullets, and they beat the other 45 handloads I'd tried hands down.

If only finding the Master (Mother?) Load was always that easy!

PJ
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Old April 8, 2008, 05:09 PM   #1573
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Hey, PJ. I am with you on the Mother Load

I have to say though in my load testing/more shooting/hunting, I am finding that fast isn't really always necessary. Of course you know that, but sometimes we might not want to believe what we know is true.

About the IMR4895. I saw an 8 #er at the LGS yesterday. I bought a 1 #er to give it a shot.

Wish me luck.

Eb1
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Old April 8, 2008, 05:14 PM   #1574
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One pound goes pretty quick. You might want to put dibs on the keg.

Good luck!

PJ
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Old April 8, 2008, 07:35 PM   #1575
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Yesterday I had the chance to shoot some targets for our centerfire Levergun match ( http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...56#post4377456 ) so I decided to use some of the PJ loads I've been saving for just such an opportunity. At 50 yards I managed a .974" five shot factory iron sight group and at 100 yards I had four of five in 1.524". Knowing I had a good group going I over thought the shot and pushed it out to 2.798" Choke.

I also shot the bonus side match with some plinker loads using a cast bullet over some Red Dot Powder as well as 50 and 100 yard targets. The plinker load doesn't measure up to the PJ load but I was quite pleased that the POI of both loads was very close out to 50 yards. At 100 yards the 170 grain cast bullet that is only jogging along at nearly 1,000 feet per second drops about 8". The five shot "group" measured 4" at that distance with three of the five printing at 1-1/2" not too bad in my estimation.

I'm glad we pressured ShakyJake into buying a Lever Rifle. I wonder how many rifles this thread has sold?
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