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Old April 21, 2008, 10:39 AM   #1601
cane
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I like to tell them it's a 7.62X51R.
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Old April 21, 2008, 10:55 AM   #1602
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Don't you mean 7.62x39?
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Old April 21, 2008, 03:13 PM   #1603
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Ze, 7.62X51R is the European designation for the .30-30.
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Old April 21, 2008, 03:16 PM   #1604
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Nem: I have seen the 125 gr HP rounds at several sources, including Natchez Shooting Supply, Outdoor Marksman, and others. It's a little pricier than Federal's 150 & 170 gr SP ammo.

http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?co...&type=0&mfg=FA

http://east.outdoormarksman.com/prod...ducts_id=68900
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Old April 21, 2008, 04:21 PM   #1605
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Quote:
Ze, 7.62X51R is the European designation for the .30-30.
Edit, OH, I misread, you were saying 51R not 54R
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Old April 22, 2008, 03:00 AM   #1606
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Thanks for those sources, Z.

Something just sounds right about a 125 gr .30-30.

Gonna have to try some to see how my 336 likes them ...

... assuming I can eventually break away from this beast called 'the business'.
(Once again, I ask: what was I thinking? )

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ
...the Land Of Misery, where even the smallest and meekest are armed to the teeth, and shooting street thugs is encouraged.
Maybe you should spread some of that love to inner city Detroit and central LA.

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Old April 22, 2008, 04:54 AM   #1607
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I have often opined that given the street thugs' penchants for turf wars and shooting each other, we should direct a portion of the Law Enforcement budget to buy them the best ammo available. Think of the millions we could save by not having to try them and incarcerate them, over and over!

But since this is a 336 thread, I'll say this........I'm glad they've never discovered what a handy rifle the 336 is, they can keep their AK's and assorted blasters. I'll put my 336's up against them anytime!

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Old April 22, 2008, 07:48 AM   #1608
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The More things change, the more...

Hi,
PapaJohn, when I was a teenager ('50s) I use to get to ride with the sheriff dept. once in a while. We were having coffee with an FHP and he was relating a story on himself. Seems there was a turf war in the 'glades and he was as a young trooper and was one of eager responders. Flying up, revolver drawn, running toward sure death, a huge hand grabbed his gunbelt and yanked him to the ground. "Sit tight, rook, we don't even know who the good guys are yet. Let them settle their own problem. No paperwork that way."
TaKe CaRe
Ted
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Old April 22, 2008, 08:09 AM   #1609
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ShakyJake
Great story!

In a similar vein, I played paintball way WAY back in the early days (you know, 12gram cartridges, 10 round tubes, and one-at-a-time hand-made markers) when we worried a lot more about stealth and careful shots. Then suddenly the game was full of semi-auto, huge hopper, blast paint everywhere players.

I quickly developed the tactic of hunkering down until the fire slacked off (often because they had "showdown syndrome" and had emptied their guns) and THEN I'd pop out and start pinging folks with (for paintball) long range accurate shots from my weird old pump gun.

That "don't move in -too- fast/let the situation settle out" mentality wound up being a great thing to have when I moved into LE work later in life and still applies today. Yeah it's fun to just "rip off a mag" with a semi-auto once in a while but I don't think I'll ever prefer it to slow and deliberate shooting with a good levergun. (I do wish Marlin would make a 336 chambered in .243 Winchester though )
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Old April 22, 2008, 09:32 AM   #1610
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Didn't Cooper say, "You can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight?"

“The most important lesson I learned was the winner of gunplay usually was the one who took his time. The second was that, if I hoped to live on the frontier, I would shun flashy trick-shooting as I would poison. I did not know a really proficient gunfighter who had anything but contempt for the gun-fanner, or the man who literally shot from the hip.” --Wyatt Earp
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Old April 22, 2008, 04:06 PM   #1611
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Quote:
(I do wish Marlin would make a 336 chambered in .243 Winchester though )
Pardon my ignorance here, Ze and others.

Even though I enthusiastically agree, that would be a problem, right, given the case design of the .243 and spitzer bullet,
which would require a new model (like Marlin's 308) and a new soft-nose cartridge from Hornady?
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Old April 22, 2008, 04:15 PM   #1612
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Nem,
You are absolutely correct, I did have a LeverEvolution style bullet in mind with my comment. Right now the only levergun in .243 (that I know of) is the Browning BLM (magazine fed) and it's not one of my preferred designs.

To be honest the LeverEvolution ammo has caused me to wish for leverguns chambered in a variety of other rounds. I wonder if more manufacturers will follow on this design or if Hornady has the patent all locked up.
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Old April 22, 2008, 04:44 PM   #1613
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Though I have not tried it I have heard of guys using spire points in their Marlins and only loading two rounds. One chambered and the other in the magazine.

Next time I'm reloading 30-30 I'll have to load up a couple of 165gr spire point dummy rounds and see if they will feed from the magazine tube.

One of the real advantages to using a levergun while hunting is the ability to top off various loads and not effect the function of the rifle. With my 30-30 I'll set out with four full power hunting loads in the tube and if I come across a Grouse that is out of easy pistol shot or I want to be quieter I'll slide in a reduced cast bullet load ~970 fps. Out to 50 yards it will print at the same point of aim as my full on jacketed loads. The report is such that it doesn't send every critter in earshot into stampede or ruin your hearing. Even a body shot will leave a lot of edible meat. A friend of mine body shot one last year with his 243. Not much left worth eating after that. The upside was he was already gutted and cooked when he picked him up....
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Old April 22, 2008, 05:50 PM   #1614
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Ze, thanks for clarifying. I, too, wonder about potentials for Hornady-inspired calibers in lever guns (esp Marlins; and I'm with you on the BLR's - fine rifles, but not quite what I'm into for a variety of reasons), AND whether Hornady has that design locked up, AND whether we'll ever be able to buy those bullets for reloads. Opinions?

Mo, I think we've touched on that "top it off with ease" feature of the Marlins, and it's good to revisit that now.

Relevant to that, that's a fantastic idea on those low power, slower velocity rnd for small game. It's always on my mind. If I was hungry for meat and hunting deer, but couldn't find a deer and getting more hungry, I'd like to have a small caliber (for all the reasons you mentioned) to take grouse, rabbit, squirrel, etc for the camp pot.

Could we discuss that a bit more (again)? What other special loads for .30-30 suitable for small game have you and others used or read about?

Nem

PS: work is eating my lunch right now, and will continue to eat my lunch more voraciously until mid-May. I'm having to work extra now to get out of debt (fortunately, quite small, relatively speaking) and prepare for summer when my business income decreases significantly ... at least in the last few years. Sorry if I'm absent from the club a lot; it's not my choice.
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Old April 22, 2008, 07:05 PM   #1615
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I just can never understand the usage of a rifle (30-30) for grouse... In my neck of the woods it's laughable.... they actually have wings where I live. Maybe I'm just a lousy rifle shot????
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Old April 22, 2008, 07:52 PM   #1616
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A great article on some various loads for a .30-30
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030varmint.htm

I remember a family friend playing with making a "snakeshot" round for 30-30 and also a wooden round but I don't think either worked very well.

Don't ask me why he tried it, he was an old (and kinda crazy) backwoods tinkerer and came up with some of the damnedest ideas and somehow never "darwin'd" himself through testing out any of 'em.
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Old April 22, 2008, 10:44 PM   #1617
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Bearhands, I understand your point.

I think we're talking about an unusual situation here: in the woods with a .30-30, far from camp, need meat for the camp pot, see grouse, so instead of walking all the way back to get the .22 or shotgun, use what you've got, etc.

Certainly not the ideal situation. Kind of like needing a ball peen hammer but having to make a sledgehammer work.

Just considering how to adapt in those extreme conditions.

I wouldn't go hunting grouse with a .30-30, but in some situations, it's nice to know it could work in a pinch.
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Old April 23, 2008, 09:39 AM   #1618
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Nem summed it up pretty well. The 30-30 isn't my grouse gun but sometimes the opportunity arises while I'm Bear/Deer/Elk hunting and I've had to make do with what I had, most typically 45 Colt, 45-70, 30-30 or 22lr.

Our superstition in camp is first legal game must be taken or risk jinxing the trip. I'm still blamed for passing up three grouse hoping to get a shot on a bull that was in the same vicinity. The grouse would have been a 'sure thing' but the bull required a stalk and as it turned out, he wasn't a legal shooter so I missed out on both. That year we didn't tag a single critter, the wind blew hard enough it broke tents, I got lost (actually I didn't know it at the time, I just took the long way back to camp) and we just barely made it out before getting snowed in... So now, if I'm hunting with that group and I see a Grouse that I can take, I do.

Our Grouse have wings too but use them only as a last resort. Most that I've come across believe they are invisible. Two weeks ago I while surveying our property I dang near stepped on one. He flew up into a tree and sat the confident he was invisible. I walked over and took a picture of him.

I wouldn't shoot them with a high velocity round but a big slow chunk of lead at the lower neck works as well as an ax and a chopping block.
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Old April 23, 2008, 10:27 AM   #1619
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Back in the mid 80's there was a company that marketed what amounted to short barrels for sub-caliber rounds, they would let you chamber a pistol round in a rifle. For example, you could buy one that looked like a 30-30 shell, but it was actually a sub-caliber insert that held a 32 ACP round. Out of a rifle barrel there was little report, and the accuracy was good enough to pot a bird or bunny at 30-40 feet if you practiced with it. I never used one, but I thought it was a neat idea.

But what most folks use is a rifle round with a FMJ or cast bullet over 6-9 grains of pistol powder, generally Unique or Red Dot. Velocities under 1000 fps are perfect for smacking birds out of trees, with minimal meat damage. It's also a lot quieter than ANY pistol, even a .22.

PJ
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Old April 23, 2008, 04:57 PM   #1620
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The Hornady leverlution. They really all that? I keep hearing about them from various sources, see the "data" but never hear any first hand accounts.

Tempted to try it with my Varget load but can't find just the leverlution bullets. And a box of 20 is around $30 or so lol
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Old April 27, 2008, 05:04 AM   #1621
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Jay_A,

If PJ is right, all you need is a reloading set up
to get great groups to 200 yds for < $30/20.
Hornady ain't got nothin' on us.
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Old April 27, 2008, 06:44 AM   #1622
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Quote:
Hornady ain't got nothin' on us.
Well, OK, maybe a little.

Those soft-nosed Spitzer bullets are totally cool.

If we could get some of them to PJ,
we'd get 250 m groups ...

... at least.

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Old April 27, 2008, 05:14 PM   #1623
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Quote:
If PJ is right, all you need is a reloading set up
to get great groups to 200 yds for < $30/20.
Hornady ain't got nothin' on us.
Oh, I know what it's capable of. Quite by accident I found the load and bullet my Marlin loves with it's microgroove barrel. I should know better, leave it alone and just be happy with it, but I can't resist the urge to tweak and test lol
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Old April 28, 2008, 12:03 PM   #1624
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Regarding the LeverEvolution cartridges, my own firsthand knowledge is with my 336XLR. These rounds are really quite accurate in this gun, and I never pay even close to $30 per 20. I can usually find them for under $20 per box. The bullets are not yet available as components for loading your own.

I have heard overwhelmingly good reports of how the LeverEvolution bullets perform on game, but have yet to use them on a hunt myself. I hope to remedy that before too long.
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Old April 29, 2008, 12:50 AM   #1625
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"Those soft-nosed Spitzer bullets are totally cool.

If we could get some of them to PJ,
we'd get 250 m groups ..."

My range only goes to 200 meters, but if I can get the results I get with dumped charges, bulk bullets, and minimal case prep, just think what anyone else could get with serious benchrest-style techniques!

Then again, maybe my 1964-vintage 30-30 is infinitely superior to anything made these days........nah. I think the key to my success is that I found a bullet the rifle liked, matched the powder burning rate to the barrel length, and had little to no airspace in the loaded round. For those that haven't read this entire thread, I tried about 45 different handloads in that rifle before I lucked onto the one it liked, so it's not like I just mashed a bullet on top of a powder column and got those results.

I've been a handloader for a couple decades, and have learned a few things that were probably pointed out to me, but had to find out myself via experimentation. (As Nem would say, science in action ) One of them is that while a lot of powders will give the ballistics you're seeking, ONE will do it better than the rest, and it's up to you to find it. In my case, a love of IMR-4895 from past experience made me try it. But you also have to ignore those who say that some powders don't work in some calibers. I love Varget in the 35, and in 223, but IMR-4895 also works in both of those. Whether it's the best for all bullet weights, or perhaps just one, is up to you to find out, through careful testing.

An example: Several sources I read, plus a few knowledgeable reloaders I know, said that while IMR-4895 was useable in the .223, it was a bit on the dirty side, and not well suited for any but the heavier bullets. I tried Varget, BLC-2, and a few others, but still felt better accuracy was out there somewhere. Since I already had 4895 on hand, I tried it, with the 50 and 52-grain bullets I prefer. Hot loads were a bit erratic, so I backed off the charge a grain, and tried it again in my AR. 50-yard groups were one hole, and 100-yard groups were only a hair bigger. The scope on my AR is only a 6X, so I was hesitant to shoot it farther, but I finally did, when conditions were less than good. If my camera hadn't died, I'd show you a pic of the group, (Hell, I'd post it on a billboard if I could!) three of four shots made a cluster that measured .335", at 200 yards, with gusty winds and crummy light. The fourth shot was 3/4" high and left, and almost certainly my fault. It might have been a fluke, but I did the same thing with a buddy's 25-06 a while back, three in .406", and a fourth an inch away, when I leaned harder on the stock.

My point is, regardless of what anyone else's rifle likes or doesn't, you'll never know what yours is capable of with any given powder or bullet if you don't try it. I brag about my best groups, gloat over my results when I beat my co-competitors, but I don't always tell you how awful my results were BEFORE I hit the mother lode. Some days, they looked worse than shotgun patterns, even close up. Lately, my beloved 1894SS won't hold a group under three inches, with ANYTHING, even proven loads, and I don't know why. But you can bet I'm not giving up, I WILL find a load that shoots into an inch at 50 yards or less, or die trying. The sad fact is that I'm still the biggest variable, and I have bad days.

And knowing all that I know, I'm still convinced that while the 0.042" group I shot with my 35 Remington 336C (50 yards, not 100!) may have been a fluke, it's my duty to try and BEAT it. May I live long long enough to do so!

This might explain why I have 17 different kinds of powder, and a dozen different bullets in every caliber I load........I WON'T GIVE UP!

PJ (The Bull-Headed Victim of Insideous Choices........)
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