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Old April 29, 2008, 04:14 AM   #1626
Nematocyst
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Quote:
For those that haven't read this entire thread ...
Who? Where?

Quote:
I've been a handloader for a couple decades, and have learned a few things that were probably pointed out to me, but had to find out myself via experimentation. (As Nem would say, science in action ) One of them is that while a lot of powders will give the ballistics you're seeking,
ONE will do it better than the rest, and it's up to you to find it.
Words of wisdom, grasshoppa.

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Old April 29, 2008, 05:49 AM   #1627
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OK, here's a question for you guys that shoot sub MOA groups out of your 336.

How clean is your barrel?

My 336 was bought used, and in pretty rough condition a few years back. I bought it because it was cheap and I didn't like not having a rifle. At the time, it was to "Hold me over" until I could buy something nicer. It has since earned it's place in my gunsafe and is in no danger of being replaced. It might get some new friends put in there next to it, but it's not going anywhere. (It's a '63 336RC in .30-30)

When I got it, it had some pretty substantial copper buildup in the barrel.

I scrubbed at it, and ate away at it with Shooter's choice, but I've never completely gotten it all out.

This rifle has shot sub MOA before. More than once. If it doesn't shoot MOA, it's right there close to it.

Copper fouling and all.

Here's my dilemma. I want to go ahead and clean the bore completely copper free, but I'm afraid that the groups might not like that. Why change something that works, right?

Sure, I know that no benchrest shooter would EVER allow copper buildup in his barrel, because we all know that the fouling will destroy accuracy.

But we all also know that MOA from a short barreled 336 isn't all that common. the ones that can do it with store bought bullets are to be treasured, not changed!

What do you guys think? Should I get aggressive with the bore, or leave well enough alone?
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Old April 29, 2008, 09:41 AM   #1628
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Fast wrote: "Why change something that works, right?"

That pretty much sums it up for me.

I have a friend that is into bench rest shooting and I bet he spends more $ on cleaning supplies than ammo. I know he spends more time cleaning than shooting while he's at the range... and a bunch more at home too.

He's also quick to point out that our sport - shooting - has something for everyone. He loves the gauges and the sorting and the case prep and the scrubbing (inside the cases too..).I'd agree that there is a niche out there for all of us.

Our hero PJ pointed out in a recent post that you got to go out and prove it. I doubt there are many things that give him more pleasure than dispelling some commonly held belief or myth busting... I say your Marlin is scientific proof that copper fouling is over rated. You've literally "PapaJohned" the experts.

If it ain't broke ....
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Old April 29, 2008, 10:45 AM   #1629
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Yup, that same lesson I have to keep re-learining.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
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Old April 29, 2008, 11:13 AM   #1630
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My Marlin 336w will shoot sub MOA, but not on a clean barrel. I now just run a bore snake and some oil about every 25 shots.
I will clean out the copper after a while. You can tell that it will start to pattern not group if you do not get "some" not "all" of the copper out.

I also noticed that my gun like to be semi warm and fouled to shoot a sub MOA.
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Old April 29, 2008, 03:38 PM   #1631
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I was at the range yesterday with my AR-15, and it dawned on me that I haven't cleaned it.......at ALL......since last September. And two weeks ago, the last time I shot it, I got three shots in the same hole, at 200 meters. No, it won't do it every time (because I can't, the gun prolly can.....) but the fact that it can do that at all tells me fouling is only an issue with certain barrels. I had an 1894C in 357 years ago that put six shots at 100 yards into a shade under an inch, and it was FILTHY. Full of lead, copper, and powder fouling. After I finally got around to cleaning it, the best group I could coax out of it was about three inches.

Didn't our mothers tell us to "leave well enough alone"? Or as the Chinese say, "We are too soon old and too late smart".......

I'm not nearly as anal about cleaning barrels as I used to be. I'm either smarter, or lazier. And while I can't get much lazier, I could be a LOT smarter!

My next range endeavor will be heavily involved with my 336's. I think the 30-30 is capable of a .5" group at 100, but we all know what the weakest link is!

PJ
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Old April 29, 2008, 03:46 PM   #1632
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I bought a new 336 in 1957. Got a nice muley with it same year. Never had any doubts it'd shoot where I aimed.
A few years later, in California, I had the opportunity to take it to the range to zero it in. The rangemaster kept yelling down to me that I was "keyholing". I didn't know what he meant, till after a few more shots, he yelled again. So I asked him what he meant. He showed me the targets where the bullets were going thru sideways, backwards, and everthing in between.
I put it back on the rack till a few years later in Alaska, I had a friend who was an amateur gunsmith. Told him about it, and he thought he could fix it. Turned out, it came from the factory with a flaw in the muzzle, and it had never been ground out. He put a tapered stone on it, and it has shot bullseyes ever since. Great gun. Hopefully, it'll end up in my great grandson's hands.
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Old April 29, 2008, 08:01 PM   #1633
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Seems like you guys all think like I do. I've resisted doing the super scrub ever since the day that it became apparent that this rifle is a shooter.

It's not like the barrel's clogged shut. There's just "Skid Marks" in the bottom of the rifling grooves.

You can see it at the muzzle.



I'm going to keep shooting it.
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Old April 30, 2008, 04:56 AM   #1634
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Master Sergeant Frank,

I'm good with the copper
in the grooves.

But maybe we could wipe
that dandruff off da' barrel?

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Old April 30, 2008, 09:22 AM   #1635
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The interior of my safe is covered with a grey short haired carpet kind of a material.

I'm pretty sure that's where the fuzzys come from.

I put them in there clean, and pull them out looking like that.

The camera (The flash) makes it stand out real obvious.

While we're here, does that crown look like somebody might have worked on it a little bit?

I noticed it when I bought the rifle, but haven't had a chance to compare it to the crown done at the factory.

What about it, guys? does yours look like that?
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Old May 4, 2008, 04:07 AM   #1636
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You're tuned to ...

The 336 Club, WTHR.

... the top of Rifle Country.

(Replies: 1,635.
Views: 71,439.)


Bump.

Oh, no, wait ...

Bump!


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Last edited by Nematocyst; May 4, 2008 at 04:37 AM.
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Old May 4, 2008, 04:23 AM   #1637
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Quote:
While we're here, does that crown look like somebody might have worked on it a little bit?

I noticed it when I bought the rifle, but haven't had a chance to compare it to the crown done at the factory.

What about it, guys? does yours look like that?
Frank,

Sorry to be so long getting back about that.

(It's been another 70-hour week at work.
At least I got to take the last two hours
of Saturday night off. )


My 336A crown doesn't look like that,
but is relatively more beveled on both outside and inside.
The inside bevel on mine is steeper and less angled -
er, the inside angle accelerates inward.

I don't have the energy for an image tonight.
But hopefully that description will help.

Suffice to say, my guess:
it's not a factory crown.

If it were mine, I'd take it to a smith
and have it re-crowned.

I'm willing to put down a 5-spot on this bet:
it'll shoot tighter groups after that.

Interested to read what others think.

Nem
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Last edited by Nematocyst; May 4, 2008 at 05:34 AM. Reason: accuracy ... and because we can :8
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Old May 4, 2008, 09:36 AM   #1638
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GEEZ !!


Hey C'Mon, Guys... I scrolled through the first 8 pages and the last 8 pages of this thread and saw only three photos of groups shot with your 30/30 leverguns !!!! What's up with that ??

The 30/30 deserves better Press than that !

How are you ever going to show all those goofballs toting around those klunky '06s and .300 WinMags that the good old 30/30 (and .35 Rem.) doesn't need any help - thankyewverymuch?

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Old May 4, 2008, 04:50 PM   #1639
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Regarding cleaning. I shoot 41 rounds through my 336 at a time. I bought two boxes of .35rem when I got the gun and have been reloading the cases. Found 2 stray pieces of brass on the ground at the range, one I crushed the shoulder when trying to use the bullet seating die to crimp rather then take my time and use the crimp die. Anyway, I usually just spray some rem-oil down the barrel and do a couple of passes with a Bore Snake, and then that's it lol
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Old May 4, 2008, 06:09 PM   #1640
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Sorry, Shawnee, I quit taking photos of my 30-30 groups because they all basically looked the same, it was BORING. But here's one I don't think I ever posted. One of my rare 100-yard 5-shot groups, and an uncommonly lousy picture. New camera due in a couple of weeks, I'll try to do better. This was an early group with the Papajohn Load, I still think the rifle is capable of better!

This other one was more typical, a 3-holer, and a slightly better photo. One thing I'll say about my 336's.......an amazing number of the three-shot groups are equilateral triangles, or close to it!
I hope this slakes your need for group photos for awhile

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Old May 5, 2008, 08:50 AM   #1641
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Alright you twisted my arm. Here is a 3 shot group with the 125 grain Sierra Hollow Point. These are 1 inch squares at 100 yards. the one on the right was definitely my fault.

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Old May 5, 2008, 09:07 AM   #1642
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Happy to report that at a Virginia gun show my bro. picked up a (supposedly rare) straight stocked 336 in .41 mag to go along with his S&W revolver. It is NOT the 1894 model but a true 336. It seems to be a handy little rifle which he will use for close in deer hunting. He got it used as new. Pretty good deal too!

Not quite a 336 but in the same tradition I purchased a model 94 Wrangler in .44 mag.

For some reason, lately, lever actions have had a renewed appeal to me.
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Old May 5, 2008, 09:46 AM   #1643
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Great find Hokkmike!

EB1, that is some fine shootin!
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Old May 10, 2008, 04:04 AM   #1644
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Bumpity bump.

Sorry to be so scarce.
Work continues to eat my lunch.

336 still hangs by the bed,
right next to the 1894C.
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Old May 10, 2008, 01:04 PM   #1645
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For some odd reason I've been having a hard time getting good groups with some of my Marlins lately. My beloved 1894SS has become finicky beyond belief, one-hole 50-yard groups are a thing of the past, replaced by 2-3" groups with little consistency to them. I'm still working on solving that little mystery, but in the meantime I dragged my 336RC to the range, to make sure it wasn't just me. I keep several hundred rounds of the Papajohn Load on hand in case downtown St Louis is ever overrun by wild hogs and Rambo Deer, so I grabbed a box and sat down to shoot some groups.

The first 50-yard group from an oily barrel was about 1.5", and I started thinking maybe the root of the problems WAS me. The second five-shot group shaded .75", so I took a break and ate lunch while the gun cooled off. Half an hour later I fired a 5-shot group that looked like a figure eight, and the last five rounds made a single oblong hole. Either I missed the huge sheet of paper completely several times, or what looks like three merging holes is actually five.

I'd post pics, but my antique digital camera finally packed it in, and I have yet to replace it. Maybe this week. Suffice it to say I feel better about my shooting ability than I did. Now if I could just exorcise the demons from my 44......

Papajohn
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Old May 10, 2008, 10:02 PM   #1646
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I don't know, PJohn... that 5-shot 100-yarder may have spooked a bunch of people away from posting groups. Or maybe they are out with their Marlins working on showing you up. LOL !

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Old May 11, 2008, 10:54 AM   #1647
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I saved the targets, for when I DO get a camera. Don't worry Shawnee, when they look that good, you KNOW I'm gonna post 'em! I'd post my worst groups, too, but it would eat up so much bandwidth the server would melt down.....

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Old May 12, 2008, 12:00 AM   #1648
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I'll see if I can't get another group up here next weekend, have my pet load worked up, scope is just about fine tuned, now I just have to do my part.
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Old May 12, 2008, 02:19 AM   #1649
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Absolutely being eaten alive by the business right now.
I'm at work now on Sunday night; note the time stamp. Been here since noon.
Just checking in to regain a bit of my sanity with a momentary diversion from work stuff ...
(Haven't even been able to pay all of May rent yet ... but going in the right direction.)

Delighted to see the club house in good hands. Please continue.
I hope to rejoin in a week or so (and see PJ's worst groups ).

(Dude, melt that server! )

Nem
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Old May 14, 2008, 10:53 AM   #1650
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Hey 336'ers, Anyone looking for an older (1952 vintage) 336 in 30-30 with Ballard rifling? Has some bluing wear but otherwise looks pretty nice for a 56 year old rifle. I believe he said he'd let it go for $275 PM or email me and I'll put you in touch with the guy selling it.
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