Quantcast
New AR 15 how wet ? - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Tools and Technologies > Rifle Country

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 28, 2015, 10:11 AM   #1
clearcut
Member
 
 
Join Date: October 9, 2013
Location: Gold country Ca.
Posts: 244
New AR 15 how wet ?

I've been told to run it wet but how wet ? clp? it's a direct impingement.
Thanks CC
clearcut is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 10:49 AM   #2
Robert
Moderator
 
 
Join Date: June 7, 2006
Location: Texan by birth, in Colorado cause I hate humidity
Posts: 8,968
It really depends on how much you shoot and in what conditions. When I was still competing I was shooting a fair amount and always in very fine, powder like sand and wind. My rifles was coated inside and out in a layer of dust. I ran very wet to keep it clear of sand. Just off the bench? I will oil if I start to have cycling issues. But I do not run it nearly as wet off the bench.
__________________
I step out of the shower wearing nothing but an AR-15 and a frown.

Superior gear will never make up for a lack of training or attitude.

When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.- Chief Tecumseh
Robert is online now  
Old July 28, 2015, 11:03 AM   #3
tyeo098
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 5, 2010
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
it's a direct impingement.
No, its not. Its actually piston driven, but the piston has been moved to inside of the BCG.

See:

I've never cleaned my AR's, just oiled them in the 6 key locations:
Cam pin
2 lower rails
2 upper rails (easily missed, on the side of the gas key)
Gas rings (drip oil on the vent holes and work the bolt back and forth to suck it in)

Never had any issues! And I use Fireclean.
__________________
Use Firefox because your spelling sucks, and it'll tell you when you've misspelled, even on THR!
Quote:
The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the second only applies to muskets? Wat?
tyeo098 is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 12:43 PM   #4
Welding Rod
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 23, 2008
Location: PacNW
Posts: 1,608
That is how I oil too, each time before I go shooting. I use a small paint brush and brush those areas TYE indicated fairly generously. I also brush the charging handle. But I don't hose it down by any means. Then I clean every 500 - 1000 rounds.
__________________
No government, agency, or politician has adequate power to take the rights of an armed people, each loss of rights has been the armed peoples' choice.
Welding Rod is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 12:51 PM   #5
NWcityguy2
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 547
When oil is leaking out the sides and into the magazine, you at are using too much. I have used all the cheap lubricants(clp, motor oil, atf) and have found that even in sandy conditions, a light coat is fine for hundreds of rounds.
NWcityguy2 is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 01:22 PM   #6
wally
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 2, 2004
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 11,280
I don't know where this "run wet" idea comes from. I don't clean my guns anywhere near as often as most of you do and they run fine being lubed just as tyeo098 described so nicely.
__________________
Your commitment to Freedom and Liberty is measured by your tolerance for others doing things you disapprove. NRA Endowment Member, 2007.
NRA Patron Member, 2009. NRA Benefactor Member 2012. There is no "race" or "ethnicity" section on the NRA membership application, unlike the Federal 4473 form to purchase a firearm!
wally is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 01:59 PM   #7
AKElroy
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 11, 2009
Location: Past & Future Republic of Texas
Posts: 3,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by clearcut View Post
I've been told to run it wet but how wet ? clp? it's a direct impingement.
Thanks CC
I have wondered about this as well. If you glaze the BCG the way some advise, then isn't there a risk of oil contamination for the top round in the mag? I rely on my M4 for HD, and I've wondered if that is a risk worth worrying about.
__________________
Question with boldness. Hold to the truth. Speak without fear.
AKElroy is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 03:05 PM   #8
briansmithwins
Member
 
 
Join Date: August 1, 2005
Posts: 3,792
Pretty wet: enough oil you can see the film but it's not dripping off.

The first couple rounds will blow any excess out anyway, which is another reason to wear eye protection.

As for desensitized primers:
1) you probably shouldn't have that much oil in there.
2) you should be swapping out the top round of the mag every month or so*.

BSW

*Assuming you leave the rifle with an empty chamber and loaded mag.
briansmithwins is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 03:10 PM   #9
C-grunt
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 12, 2005
Location: Phoenix Az
Posts: 3,598
You really cant over lube the AR. Well I guess if you pour oil down the barrel that would be over lubing.

I keep mine pretty wet. It comes out of the sides sometimes. I use Mobile 1 10w30.

If it looks dry then add oil. If it looks wet then you are probably fine. In the Army when we went to the range a guy with a spray bottle of oil would give us one or two sprays in through the open ejection port and we were good. Its nothing to overthink.
__________________
2nd platoon C Co.
1st Battalion 30th Infantry Regiment
3rd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division
OIF 1 and 3
C-grunt is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 03:12 PM   #10
ku4hx
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 8, 2009
Posts: 2,349
Pretty good read here: http://www.readbag.com/ar15-content-swat-keepitrunning
ku4hx is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 03:42 PM   #11
AKElroy
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 11, 2009
Location: Past & Future Republic of Texas
Posts: 3,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyeo098 View Post
No, its not. Its actually piston driven, but the piston has been moved to inside of the BCG.

See:

I've never cleaned my AR's, just oiled them in the 6 key locations:
Cam pin
2 lower rails
2 upper rails (easily missed, on the side of the gas key)
Gas rings (drip oil on the vent holes and work the bolt back and forth to suck it in)

Never had any issues! And I use Fireclean.
Not to get sidetracked, but I have been seeing this "correction" frequently. Can't we agree that when someone refers to a "DI" gun, it is to differentiate between it and the various "P" guns that are now becoming so popular on the AR front? Maybe a new acronym would be better; the heavier, more complicated but less crap in the receiver version (THMCBLCITR) vs the lighter, less complicated, more crap in the receiver version. (LLCMCITR)
__________________
Question with boldness. Hold to the truth. Speak without fear.
AKElroy is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 03:57 PM   #12
tyeo098
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 5, 2010
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKElroy View Post
Not to get sidetracked, but I have been seeing this "correction" frequently. Can't we agree that when someone refers to a "DI" gun, it is to differentiate between it and the various "P" guns that are now becoming so popular on the AR front?
No. Words mean things. Its like calling a 1911 'blowback' when it operates from a locked breech.

Quote:
Maybe a new acronym would be better; the heavier, more complicated but less crap in the receiver version (THMCBLCITR) vs the lighter, less complicated, more crap in the receiver version. (LLCMCITR)
Its called 'gas impingement' or the Stoner Gas System. Which is different from 'Direct Impingement'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene Stoner
″This invention is a true expanding gas system instead of the conventional impinging gas system.″
Back on topic: You JUST need enough oil to:
a) Stave off corrosion on non-coated parts
b) Keep metal-on-metal parts moving with limited friction.

Which is not a lot of oil. A thin film will work fine.
__________________
Use Firefox because your spelling sucks, and it'll tell you when you've misspelled, even on THR!
Quote:
The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the second only applies to muskets? Wat?
tyeo098 is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 04:11 PM   #13
AKElroy
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 11, 2009
Location: Past & Future Republic of Texas
Posts: 3,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyeo098 View Post
No. Words mean things. Its like calling a 1911 'blowback' when it operates from a locked breech.


Its called 'gas impingement' or the Stoner Gas System. Which is different from 'Direct Impingement'


Back on topic: You JUST need enough oil to:
a) Stave off corrosion on non-coated parts
b) Keep metal-on-metal parts moving with limited friction.

Which is not a lot of oil. A thin film will work fine.
OK, not to get completely off of oiling, but meanings do change with usage. What Stoner phrased 50 years ago does not take into account common CURRENT vernacular. From the Daniel Defense website:

GAS SYSTEM: Pinned Low Profile Gas Block CNC Machined of 4140 hardened steel with Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate Coating, Carbine Length, Direct Impingement
__________________
Question with boldness. Hold to the truth. Speak without fear.
AKElroy is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 04:21 PM   #14
tyeo098
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 5, 2010
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKElroy View Post
OK, not to get completely off of oiling, but meanings do change with usage. What Stoner phrased 50 years ago does not take into account common CURRENT vernacular. From the Daniel Defense website:

GAS SYSTEM: Pinned Low Profile Gas Block CNC Machined of 4140 hardened steel with Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate Coating, Carbine Length, Direct Impingement
Remington calls the magazines that come with its 770-series rifles 'clips'
Just because they are a company doesn't mean they are correct.

The Remington 7400 is direct-impingement. The gas hits the bcg directly and causes motion in a linear fashion.

The AR works like a while different animal. It feeds the gas INTO the bcg, where it uses it to hold the bolt against the breech while simultaneously expanding to move the carrier backwards to unlock the bolt.
While the carrier moving, the gas rings are scraping the inside of the BCG, removing any fouling built up on the walls where the bolt runs.
When the carrier is moved back enough, the gas is vented, along with any crap that the rings had scraped off.

Then the momentum gained by the carrier cycles the bcg.

It truly is a self-cleaning design that almost perfectly mirrors the workings on an internal combustion engine.

Theres like 50 things going on in an AR's operation that is much more complicated than 'gas pushes carrier backward, pulls bolt, unlocks, and cycles'
__________________
Use Firefox because your spelling sucks, and it'll tell you when you've misspelled, even on THR!
Quote:
The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the second only applies to muskets? Wat?
tyeo098 is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 04:33 PM   #15
AKElroy
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 11, 2009
Location: Past & Future Republic of Texas
Posts: 3,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyeo098 View Post
Remington calls the magazines that come with its 770-series rifles 'clips'
Just because they are a company doesn't mean they are correct.

The Remington 7400 is direct-impingement. The gas hits the bcg directly and causes motion in a linear fashion.

The AR works like a while different animal. It feeds the gas INTO the bcg, where it uses it to hold the bolt against the breech while simultaneously expanding to move the carrier backwards to unlock the bolt.
While the carrier moving, the gas rings are scraping the inside of the BCG, removing any fouling built up on the walls where the bolt runs.
When the carrier is moved back enough, the gas is vented, along with any crap that the rings had scraped off.

Then the momentum gained by the carrier cycles the bcg.

It truly is a self-cleaning design that almost perfectly mirrors the workings on an internal combustion engine.

Theres like 50 things going on in an AR's operation that is much more complicated than 'gas pushes carrier backward, pulls bolt, unlocks, and cycles'
OK. If DI applies to only those designs whereby gas directly cycles the bolt, then an AK47 is actually a DI gun; as the piston and the bolt are a single unit, while the SKS is a piston actuated gun since the piston actuates a transfer bar that then strikes the bolt rearward, correct? I'm just trying to display the usage of terms in contrasting a traditional piston" gun like the AK, with the traditional DI AR.

Common usage of these terms is actually the opposite of their true design, but it is nonetheless current common usage. Back to oil.....
__________________
Question with boldness. Hold to the truth. Speak without fear.
AKElroy is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 04:56 PM   #16
tyeo098
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 5, 2010
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
OK. If DI applies to only those designs whereby gas directly cycles the bolt, then an AK47 is actually a DI gun; as the piston and the bolt are a single unit,
Actually the piston is attached to the carrier, the opposite of an AR, where the piston is the bolt.
This is called the Long Stroke Gas Piston design, since the piston travels the full stroke of the carrier.

Quote:
the SKS is a piston actuated gun since the piston actuates a transfer bar that then strikes the bolt rearward, correct?
Correct, just like in piston AR's, the piston is spring loaded and hits the carrier to cycle the bolt.
This is called Short Stroke Gas Piston since the piston only travels a short distance, and is not attached to the bolt.

Quote:
I'm just trying to display the usage of terms in contrasting a traditional piston" gun like the AK, with the traditional DI AR.
But they're all different.

The way an AK works is different from the way an SKS works which is different from the way a MAS-49 works, which is different from the way an AR works.
__________________
Use Firefox because your spelling sucks, and it'll tell you when you've misspelled, even on THR!
Quote:
The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the second only applies to muskets? Wat?
tyeo098 is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 05:30 PM   #17
Buzznrose
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 15, 2012
Location: SA, TX
Posts: 203
New AR 15 how wet ?

Tyeo098,

Words do mean things, and until the overarching AR-15 community, including manufacturers, gunsmiths, trainers, buyers, and distributors, starts calling what is commonly known as a DI gun a Piston gun, all you are doing is trying to look like a know-it-all and confusing new folks to the sport.

I will readily admit that I am no engineer, nor have I had courses in engineering, and I would not doubt that in the most technically correct meaning of the words, a DI AR actually operates via a piston concept. However, the marketplace and the accepted terminology of thousands of consumers would prove that people accept the term DI and use it as an understood classification of a firearm that differentiates common semiautomatic weapons.

And their words might not be 100% technically accurate, but they do mean something in terms of information transfer...the root purpose of language.

And as far as lubrication on an AR, or any other weapon goes, I'll defer to a guy who knows more about making an AR run than most folks posing on Internet boards:

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-...n-lubrication/

There are other takes on weapons lubrication out there, but I like to think hot, moving metal parts need sufficient lubrication...
__________________
"Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." Clint Eastwood in "The Outlaw Josey Wales".
Buzznrose is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 07:23 PM   #18
carbine85
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 1, 2007
Location: Southwest, Ohio
Posts: 1,687
All gas operated guns are gas impingement and the AR is of the DI type.
Just lubricate until the parts look a little wet and don't put too much concern into it.
You can use Frog lube which isn't wet. It leaves a nice lubricated layer behind and makes cleaning pretty easy.
__________________

"That's the good thing as a President, I can do whatever I want"
Barack Obama - Americas 1st Dictator
"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."
George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights)
carbine85 is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 07:44 PM   #19
NWcityguy2
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 547
I don't get super particular about is it DI or is it a piston. In common usage, it is a DI gun. This is like arguing Suppressor vs Silencer, both sides of the argument have a valid opinion on what is the correct term, and it in no way effects the actual usage of the devices.

On the subject of excessive lube, it can lead to more dirt/sand in the system, but it is still better than running a gun too dry. When you put more lube into the action than it can reasonably hold, it is going to find ways to leak out and it won't be all at once. When it leaks out the side, it might make a bit of a mess, but that doesn't effect the function of the gun one bit. The real problem is what leaks down the magazine well, especially if you drop your mags on the ground when reloading. A magazine soaked in oil can pick up a lot of dirt and sand, and if you stick it back in there without wiping it off, you are easily introducing more dirt into the gun than shooting a couple hundred rounds.

I think the point some people miss it this isn't a good vs bad type argument. It is more of a bad<good<better<best type thing. There is certainly more than one way to lube an AR. However, from my experience, using a light coat of cheap lubricant is good enough for most uses. (ever notice that in the AR world though, when someone says "good enough," they really mean to say "not good enough for me?). I carry a small squirt bottle of lube in my shooting bag, and have never been inconvenienced by squirting a small amount more into my gun. I prefer to do that over loading so much in there to begin with that it starts leaking out from every spot it can find.
NWcityguy2 is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 08:05 PM   #20
dperlich
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 28, 2015
Posts: 13
I run my ARs wet, really wet! The gun will spit out excess oil after firing the first couple of rounds (wear eye protection). After that, it runs as smooth as a baby's ass. The second benefit with running super wet is that it makes it easy to clean afterwards. All you have to do is wipe the bcg and the internals of the upper receiver and you're good to go. I clean after every time I come back from the range out of habit from being in the military. Supposedly the weapon has a lesser chance to fail if you clean it regularly. I don't know if that's just military bs or not, but I don't want to take that chance in the unlikely event that my life would really need that weapon to function perfectly.
dperlich is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 08:18 PM   #21
NWcityguy2
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 547
There is no benefit to having a gun over-lubed when it comes to cleaning. As several people have pointed out, an over lubed AR will turn into a properly lubed AR fairly quickly. Once the oil is gone, it's not doing anything positive for you.
NWcityguy2 is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 08:35 PM   #22
SuperNaut
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 19, 2006
Location: SLC, Utah
Posts: 3,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyeo098 View Post
I've never cleaned my AR's, just oiled them in the 6 key locations:
Cam pin
2 lower rails
2 upper rails (easily missed, on the side of the gas key)
Gas rings (drip oil on the vent holes and work the bolt back and forth to suck it in)

Never had any issues! And I use Fireclean.
I am by no means an expert, but I learned from one. I do the same as the quoted post.
__________________
Hunting is Green, Reloading is Green
SuperNaut is offline  
Old July 28, 2015, 09:47 PM   #23
dperlich
Member
 
 
Join Date: July 28, 2015
Posts: 13
Well, there is such a thing as not being wet enough. I've ran into that after thoroughly cleaning my AR-10 and thought I had it properly lubed. After 20 rounds it started to not cycle correctly. Had to spray extra lube into the ejection port.

The only issue I have now is that the bolt doesn't lock back to the rear after firing the last round.
dperlich is offline  
Old Yesterday, 12:47 AM   #24
herrwalther
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 1, 2013
Posts: 2,465
I am in the "light film" camp for lubrication of an AR. I lock the BCG to the rear and spray a small stream (out of a pump bottle) against the far upper receiver wall from the ejection port. I charge the weapon a few times (sans ammo) to let the BCG spread the lube around a bit. With continued firing (over 500 rounds) I will add a bit more lube to any dry areas, back of the BCG, gas key etc.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
OEF Veteran
herrwalther is offline  
Old Yesterday, 01:20 AM   #25
NWcityguy2
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 547
There are plenty of places on an AR which simply are not meant to hold lubricant while the weapon is shooting. Inside the gas key and bolt carrier are two examples. I put oil between the bolt and carrier when I clean the rifle, but that is to battle any corrosion and not the lube the weapon itself.

Quote:
I've never cleaned my AR's
No one has been able to explain to me the benefit of never cleaning a gun.
NWcityguy2 is offline  
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.