Spring Planting, long term storage Qs

[El Tejon]

Now that Spring is around the corner, my brother and I are planning on planting several guns and necessary ammunition. In kicking around several ideas last night, we have the following questions:

1. Since we live in a region with a high watertable, how does one best guard against water damage because of leaks in your burial tube? Grease? Total submersion of the weapon in say mineral oil? My brother suggested a plastic lined tube filled with something like mineral oil. If the ground does shift and the tube does crack, the weapon will still be encased in at least one layer.

2. What is the best way to store ammo? Vaccuum packing? Inert gas displacing the oxygen?

3. What countermeasures are effective against metal detectors? Scattering metal around burial sites? Fake/dummy spots? Metal rebar a couple of feet above tube? What about coating the burial tube? Is a coating effective, like asphalt?

4. Do you think there are any countermeasures for seismic probes?

[Henry Bowman]

1. Cosmoline + vacuum seal bag + PVC pipe with glued caps.

2. Vacuum pack + dessicant

3. Plant an old alternator or starter above vertical tube, plus some other junk around. No idea about effective shielding

4. No idea

[Outlaw Man]

Just what I've read, no actual experience:

You can use dry ice to flush oxygen out of the tube (keep the opening turned up). Also, if it's something safe to do it you can use a candle. The flame will extinguish itself when the oxygen is gone.

[ConfuseUs]

I would say coat them thoroughly in cosmoline, double wrap in heavy duty poly bags and then put them in PVC tubes. Bury the PVC/baggie/cosmoline/gun assemblies with a good fertilizer and water twice a week. Although certain parts of guns are grown on trees it would be interesting to find out if actual guns can grow on trees.

I suppose that the ammo could be stored in watertight plastic boxes that you could shrink wrap. The actual plastic battle packs could be buried as is, but I think that would inhibit sprouting, and you wouldn't get a good crop.

[Hardtarget]

In my area there are small caves. I've thought about the same "wrap/tube" system and then into the cave. Placed on a raised area or shelf formation to avoid water. Then careful dry stack the opening to camoflage everything.
Mark.

[ilcylic]

Hose 'em down with cosmoline, add silica gel packets, wrap 'em in lead sheeting, solder it shut, coat it in another layer of cosmo, stick it in nylon tubing, and heat weld it closed.

Not, y'know, that I've ever done that. But it seems like it should work. I don't think lead corrodes in water, though it may electrolytically, if the right minerals are present in the water. I suppose you could wrap them in gold sheet, instead, but that's liable to be cost prohibitive.

I kinda of wish I had your problems. In a SHTF scenario out here in NM, just finding water is going to be one of my biggest problems.

[txgho1911]

3. Alternator or other debris along with other obvious accessories like a fence or metal shelving above ground with clear and active utility. Possibly an excavation on the edge of a foundation or other concrete concealment that can be bypassed when you know where to dig.
Gravel driveway where the last retired car or tractor can easily be de-wheeled like abandoned. Engine block and frame is heavy enough to mask any detection equipment used at a distance (500'-15000' special Predator drone).

[rbernie]

how does one best guard against water damage because of leaks in your burial tube? Grease?

As much as I've heard, cosmoline is best since it thickens and will not run, drip, and/or evaporate off under any likely environmental conditions. I'd not feel silly using a similar thickening grease spray, such as commercial motorcycle chain lube. Just be sure to hit the bore really well.

I would also have the seedlings re-park'ed before planting..

What about coating the burial tube? Is a coating effective, like asphalt?

To the best of my knowledge - no. The best you can do is provide sacrificial ferrous material above/around the tube, or place it such a manner that direct overhead access is eliminated (e.g. under the foundation slab of an outbuilding).

What is the best way to store ammo? Vacuum packing? Inert gas displacing the oxygen?

Ammo has been stored in simple watertight cans for decades without issue. I'd likely just use milsurp ammo cans and include a liberal amount of desiccant.

[Barbara]

Dude, no way are you going to be able to grow guns like that.

[NukemJim]

Dude, no way are you going to be able to grow guns like that.

Maybe not but it would be fun to have him try it anyway.

NukemJim

[ceetee]

Lead is actually a very good choice. When exposed to air and water, the surface layer of lead molecules oxidize. These new lead oxide molecules bond tightly to the underlying lead, sealing it off from the air, and halting the corrosion process. The only caveat is that running water will (over time) wash away the surface layer. So don't sink anything coated in lead into a river.

[bogie]

Why are you burying guns?

If it turns out you need to hide them, you'll have to dig 'em up to shoot the sonsabitches who are causing you to need to hide them.

Save the time and effort, buy more ammo, and practice more at 300 yards with interesting centerfire rifles.

[ArfinGreebly]

Yeah.

I wuz wondering myself.

El T? Do you know something you'd like to share?

[SWModel19]

Along the lines of what bogie said, some time back I read somewhere (here, in fact, if I recall) "If it is time to bury your guns, it is time to dig them up."

Not that I'm being critical - I recently remodeled part of my house, and I seriously considered getting some cosmoline and long plastic bags and hiding a few things in a wall or two. But, I figured if I ever moved, I'd have to do some drywalling before I left. Also, I enjoy shooting everything I own too much to squirrel it away - I'd find myself recovering it before long anyway.

[BB93YJ]

My White's Electronics XLT detector seems best suited for finding beercan pull tabs... that being said, find an old piece of corrugated tin, like the type found on an old barn roof, bury the tubes vertically with the top of the tubes about a foot or so below the surface. Put about six inches of soil over the tubes, then scatter a handfull of nails, scrapmetal or such, add more soil then take a piece of the scrap tin and bury it just a few inches below the surface, over the tube and above the nails. A largish piece of tin will give a big hit on a detector. If/when the detectorist digs down and hits the tin he may move on, but in case he removes the tin and again sweeps his coil over the area under the tin, he'll come upon the nails/metal scraps, and he'll most likely look elsewhere. It'll help if it's not out of the ordinary for tin and other types of metal scraps, etc., to be found buried in that particular location.

[sm]

El Tejon,

I cannot find an old thread at TFL that had some good information about this.

You might want to PM the author of Enemies Foreign and Domestic if Matthew does not see this thread and chime in first.

Henry's post is pretty much what I recall being advised.

[ilcylic]

bogie, arfin, model19: it's the same idea as having a "throwaway gun" you can plant on a guy if you ever have to shoot someone. Bury some guns somewhere, along with ammo and magazines, then if anyone ever comes a-knockin, you can hand over "all your guns" as docile as a lamb... then go dig up what ya hid 'cause it's sure time, and... well, nothing sufficiently high road follows along in that sentence.

[45/70]

Dumb idea. Really dumb. Viet Cong buried guns in the dirt. AK's mostly, when they stormed Saigon the stocks were rotted off and the guns wrapped in rags.

If it gets to the point in the US that you need a gun that you've buried, you're gonna be DEAD first.

Fantasyland in here gets hip deep too often. Join the freekin' Marines if you want to play soldier.

[Titan6]

What they said but don't forget to plant several briars near the area that will spread and cover the area. People don't like looking for things when the looking is hard; they would rather look in an easy spot.

[Lee Lapin]

El T,

Pay no nevermind to the naysayers.

For those of you abhorrent at the idea of safely storing utilitarian firearms over the long term, just think of it as using Mother Earth as your gunsafe.

Clean everything thoroughtly first. Depending on your container's dimensions, you might need to field strip the piece, remove buttstocks, pistol grips, barrels (in the case of takedown items) etc. Sometimes it is a good idea to package wood components separately.

As a preservative, I have found plain old baby bum grease (PJ, or petroleum jelly) to work quite well. The 'store brand' is fine, doesn't have to be the high priced spread. Goes on easily with a stiff brush. Use the appropriate 'mop' and cleaning rod to coat the bore. I confess to having never planted anything under exceptionally harsh conditions (in ground subject to frost heave, below the water table etc) however. If those are the sorts of circumstances you will be dealing with, you might wish to employ cosmoline.

I have found that a layer or three of waxed paper on top of the PJ is a great idea. Keeps PJ from getting all over everything, mainly. Helps keep the PJ where it does the most good, and adds another layer of protection to the article inside. Pad projections like sights, bolthandles etc by tearing a strip of waxed paper, folding it over until it is several thicknesses, wrapping it around and taping it in place with masking tape.

On top of this I like to add a layer of butcher paper. This is heavy freezer paper with a plastic layer on the inside. Wrap as neatly as possible and secure all seams with masking tape.

Then into the heavy plastic tubing it goes, to be heat sealed. I don't try to vacuum pack, just squeeze out as much air as possible by hand before sealing.

And then the parcels are ready to go into their containers. Containers should be large enough to store complete items in the same container, along with all the necessaries to get it useable- sling, cleaning kit, magazines, web gear, whatever. I don't recommend splitting components of a given item between two containers- keep complete items together. I don't generally package ammo in the same container as a rule with the item, YMMV. I like to assemble as much of a complete set of battle rattle in a container as I can. No need to waste space, fill it with a rolled up pistol belt, sidearm, holster etc.- whatever can be stuffed in that might be useful.

Containers... ah yes. Whatever works, of course. PVC is classic, and hard to beat. But always keep your eye open for other alternatives. Sonobouy tubes, for example. The plastic tubes 81mm mortar rounds come in, for small stuff. Artillery powder tubes. Useful storage containers literally abound, to the open mind and watchful eye.

As to placing caches- there's an entire science to that. They don't all have to be buried. If buried, countermeasures are sometimes good IF NOT TOO OBVIOUS. Collapsed building or burned-down building with a tin roof is a good site. Ditto old trash dumps. Any place a pipe is already buried might work, millimeter wave radar can show disturbed ground, so LOTS of recently disturbed ground in the area is good. And so on.

I have been 'putting away' what I call giveaways for a good while. Remember the days when you could get a new SKS and a 1000 rounds of ammo for $150? Trading stock, or seeing to it some dependable person who shows up emptyhanded can pull his or her own weight, or backups for a really rainy day- call it what you will. It's good to be prepared.

So far I have only had to pull one cache, to give to a friend when I found out he had literally sold everything he owned to pay med school bills. He got a Mossberg 500 with two barrels (18" and 28") and a decent 1911A1. I offered him a choice of anything I had, and that's what suited him. The cache had been in place for several years, and was perfectly fine when recovered- a nice test to the method.

Keeping extra stuff safe under a variety of circumstances is the name of the game here. Has nothing to do with paranoia or anything else. The primary stuff is always available if needed, nothing wrong with stashing extras in a safe and secure fashion.

Carry on...

lpl/nc

[Koobuh]

Something to consider if you choose to use PVC pipe and bury it vertically...
It would suck to have to dig up all of it, so here's what you do.
Get TWO sizes of pipe, one which will fit nicely, end-caps and all, inside the other. Make sure the larger pipe is long enough that your smaller one can fit comfortably inside, with caps attached, and a handle on its top.
Prepare your cache.
I would actually discourage gooping up your firearm for storage. At least not with cosmoline, that would render it useless until it's had a thorough cleanup.
Depending on conditions, would you have time or facilities for this process?
Use an anti-corrossive oil that bonds to the metal, like corrossion-x, and wrap everything in treated plastic. Place the gun(s) in the smaller pipe, along with ammo, cleaning kit (don't forget this!), maybe a small survival kit (bugout altoid tin, perhaps), and a fresh pair of tighty whities. No gum, because you're there because you need to kick ***, not chew bubblegum.
Use a couple dessicant packs (silica gel cat litter can be used to make these, btw), maybe some dry ice (CO2 is heavier than oxygen, after all, and it will pool in the tube like water, excluding oxygen and anything else that's lighter), to assure a bone-dry, oxygen-free environment, and you're good on that end.

Now, you're working with pvc pipe, which is the same stuff they used for plumbing your house. It's cheap, durable, and if prepped, will seal with epoxy or silicone glue completely water tight. Plumbing, remember? Right.
It will also be very close to completely air-tight, at least enough that it makes no difference.
After you're done prepping it, glue (or tie) a synthetic rope or plastic handle to one end, which will be the 'top'. Make sure it's strong enough to pull up the weight of the entire assembly. Don't compromise the seal with drilling or screws, unless you're prepared to seal up every joint inside and out with a bunch of silicone.
So, you have your completely sealed, oxygen purged 'pill', ready to cache.

Now, you take the larger pipe, seal one end, and dig a hole that will fit it vertically, plus a couple feet for cover and decoy refuse. Backfill around it up to just under the open top, and place your pill inside of it, handle up of course. Place some more dry ice on top of the pill if you like, just to be safe, and put the cap on. I wouldn't glue it permanently (that defeats the purpose of this exercise), maybe just some silly putty to keep it from coming off on its own. A handle on this cap would be handy too, just so you can pull it off quickly.

What you have now is as quick-access a cache as can be accomplished with pvc. Just dig down to the top of the big pipe, take off the lid, and pull out your pill, ready to go. This way you don't have to dig up the whole darn thing, because pipe is very hard to pull out of compacted dirt end-first.

Hope you brought something to break the pill open with at that point, 'cause pvc is tough stuff. An axe would probably work, if you were careful and left enough room for everything to be safe at one end while you worked on it.


Big points to remember, you're burying this gun because you expect to have to use it when you dig it up. Keeping it in operational shape is more important than worrying about rust. Other prep work will assure your firearm is protected from oxidation.
Don't forget additional items you'll wish you hadn't neglected, like a cleaning kit with plenty of consumables, a token survival kit, and good quality ammunition.
BDUs or a camo poncho couldn't hurt, nor would ammo pouches and a load-bearing kit, since you aren't necessarily going out to retrieve your cache with everything you need to fight.
Also important- don't put anything in your pill that will expire or spoil. That means batteries, food (even survival rations), medication, water packs, whatever. Put these things in a second pill on top of your other, if you must, but don't compromise your main cache's indefinite survivability.

"Fantasyland in here gets hip deep too often. Join the freekin' Marines if you want to play soldier."
Know what that reminds me of?
"If you want to play with guns, join the army"
Not every enemy of freedom fights under a foreign standard. Be mindful of how you apply your criticism, 45/70, we all have something at stake.

[Dorryn]

Fantasyland in here gets hip deep too often. Join the freekin' Marines if you want to play soldier.

I am a Marine. I still plan on burying guns and cacheing ammo.

You can bet those victims of Katrina who had their weapons confiscated wished they had a stash somewhere. And they lived.... yet again disproving the "if its time to bury guns its time to dig them up" philosophy.

[feedthehogs]

I thought I've seen an influx of black suvs and helos.

But they were invisible, so I wasn't sure.

Wow........

[Hemicuda]

I can't even find all the guns in my house, and I have an accurate list of what I am looking for... what in the WORLD makes you think the BATFE could do better... so why bother burying them?

[El Tejon]

Hemi and others, why you ask: Because burying a few guns or more is cheap insurance.

Koobuh, thanks much, something to think about. My brother was advocating a tube within a tube concept. I was thinking a full sized AR (if I'm worried about stock damage to milsurps, my brother suggested buying replacement stocks) with a Glock as a pistol, no wood to corrode and even I can work on both weapons.

45/70, no fantasy warrior here. However, to me, it is a fantasy to assume everything will be AOK. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best and all of that.

Do we have any members that are really into metal detectors? Wonder if there is a forum for metal detectors devotees?