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Old September 9, 2014, 07:26 PM   #1
Kynoch
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A magnificent example of why not to use "liberal" as an attack/insult

A magnificent example of why pro-2A individuals should not arbitrarily offend "liberal" 2A supporters:

"A gun owners group is urging California Gov. Jerry Brown to veto a gun control bill — but it’s one that might garner some special attention, because its members agree with the Democrat on most other matters.

In a letter to Brown, Liberal Gun Owners Association President Eric Wooten called the legislation that passed the state’s legislature `unconstitutional, unaffordable, unproven and unworkable...'”


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...anti-gun-bill/
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Old September 9, 2014, 08:55 PM   #2
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Yup, using blanket terms to condemn someone you disagree with on one issue is foolish. I find it amusing that I have had self-identified conservatives damn me for being a liberal and self-identified liberals damn for being a conservative based on my opinion of just one issue. As a society, not just as supporters of the RKBA, we need to stop demonizing people we disagree with. These people are not going anywhere, despite some people advocating splitting the United States up into smaller countries of like minded people, so we better find a way to cooperate.
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Old September 10, 2014, 12:30 AM   #3
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It seems that those who use the term "liberal" as a slam should be using the word "socialist" instead.
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Old September 10, 2014, 01:08 AM   #4
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Why is one label better than another? We should be trying to change peoples minds rather than calling them names.
If we can't change their minds, move on to someone else who needs education. Calling people names just makes us look childish and immature, not the voice of reason and logic

As good as it feels, it helps nothing.
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Old September 10, 2014, 01:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 200Apples View Post
.
It seems that those who use the term "liberal" as a slam should be using the word "socialist" instead.
Naw. Focus on the subject at hand and don't judge that which you don't know about a person. In this context, if you feel you must use a label (which certainly is not typically the case) and should they actually demonstrate anti-2A behavior,, how about: "anti-gunners", "anti-gun extremists", "gun-banners", "anti-constitution zealots", "anti-rights", etc., etc?
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Old September 10, 2014, 01:52 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by silicosys4 View Post
Why is one label better than another? We should be trying to change peoples minds rather than calling them names.
If we can't change their minds, move on to someone else who needs education. Calling people names just makes us look childish and immature, not the voice of reason and logic

As good as it feels, it helps nothing.
I largely agree. In most cases labels are used as slurs simply to make one feel good about themselves.

Last edited by Kynoch; September 10, 2014 at 02:03 AM.
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Old September 10, 2014, 05:56 AM   #7
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I saw another thread that had the "liberal" slam as a general theme (which devolved to name-calling and was rightly closed by the mods). However, there were a couple of links I put in a post there that are consistent with what I see as the general theme of this thread - that those who fit in a political box called "liberal" do not walk lockstep on all issues. My politics are right of center, for full disclosure.

Have a great day all.
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Old September 10, 2014, 07:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptical_in_Ohio View Post
I saw another thread that had the "liberal" slam as a general theme (which devolved to name-calling and was rightly closed by the mods). However, there were a couple of links I put in a post there that are consistent with what I see as the general theme of this thread - that those who fit in a political box called "liberal" do not walk lockstep on all issues. My politics are right of center, for full disclosure.

Have a great day all.
I think that's true of just about anyone with a functioning brain -- no matter what their political beliefs.
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Old September 10, 2014, 07:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kynoch View Post
A magnificent example of why pro-2A individuals should not arbitrarily offend "liberal" 2A supporters:

"A gun owners group is urging California Gov. Jerry Brown to veto a gun control bill — but it’s one that might garner some special attention, because its members agree with the Democrat on most other matters.

In a letter to Brown, Liberal Gun Owners Association President Eric Wooten called the legislation that passed the state’s legislature `unconstitutional, unaffordable, unproven and unworkable...'”


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...anti-gun-bill/
I have been saying this for years. There are lots of real for sure liberals the believe in the RKBA and the Second Amendment and there always have been. I would expect there always will be.
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Old September 10, 2014, 08:05 AM   #10
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I am more Libertarian than anything. That makes me "liberal" on certain social issues and "staunchly conservative" on others. Using any label on someone based on one issue is ludicrous and could lose their support for the issue at hand
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Old September 10, 2014, 08:34 AM   #11
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I hear what you are saying. It's easier to peel people off one by one to vote correctly on gun issues if you don't label them as all alike. I get it. Many people who can perhaps still fall under that umbrella are very much pro freedom. If you can frame the attacks on our civil rights as an attack on all of us, then we can advance. Challenge their basic belief structure with labels or worse say they must be conservative to vote pro 2nd and the walls go up instantly. And the battle is lost.
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Old September 10, 2014, 08:47 AM   #12
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One problem is that the very word "Liberal" has been distorted. I get that words sometimes change with usage and time, but there are a few words that have been deliberately bastardized for political reasons and this is one example.

Nobody, right leaning or left leaning, will be in complete agreement with a particular party platform. So while it doesn't surprise me that some self identified "liberals" are pro-gun, those that self identify as liberal are far more likely to have a great many "qualifiers" in their support.
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Old September 10, 2014, 08:54 AM   #13
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Yes. Now how many truly "liberal" or even the fence straddler POLITICIANS who vote the D line are going to be swaying if you don't label them as liberal? None. And not labeling them suits them just fine.
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Old September 10, 2014, 09:39 AM   #14
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"Liberal" is a bad word but "Conservative" is a good word?
Liberal=Democrat=Progressive=Socialist.
Conservative=Republican=Tea Partier=Evangelical.

These words mean whatever the Press wants them to mean. I have no problem being termed a Conservative but I am certainly not an Evangelical. In general people that are considered Liberal are also anti gun. It's like any general or blanket statement.
Unfortunately most of the time we associate Liberal with the Democratic Party which tends to be the group that supports all the anti gun legislation. California, one of the MOST "Liberal" states is absolutely crammed with gun totin' RKBA people but the State virtually always votes Democratic/Liberal.
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Old September 10, 2014, 09:40 AM   #15
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I believe gun rights people generally use the term liberal as a catch all because it’s the liberal arm of the political spectrum that seeks to curtail our 2A rights. I completely agree that there are ‘liberals’ that support gun rights just as there are ‘conservatives’ that support gun control. Unfortunately, our society has made gun rights a political divide and as such, it has become a platform issue for our two-party system (as opposed to it not being a platform issue where no political party pushes for gun rights/gun control). The liberal party runs on a platform that favors gun control. Its leadership is committed to taking our guns away from us. It is only natural to refer to liberals as being anti-gun. True, it’s guilt by association for those liberals who truly believe in gun rights, but if you support the liberal party, you are supporting gun control. The fact remains that by and large, it’s liberals that go to the media to expound on the 'evils' of guns, it’s liberals who try to pass gun control legislation, and it’s the liberal party that defines itself with anti-gun policies.

Labels aside, my experience tells me that most people that subscribe to liberal ideals also subscribe to gun control.
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Old September 10, 2014, 09:48 AM   #16
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It's akin to the classical meaning of "Liberal Arts" (the combined study of math,
science, history, literature, and languages) has been redirected toward radical
Leftist venues -- even though the US Military Academy at West Point was ranked
the nation's #1 Liberal Arts college last year.

If you REAALY want to get me going, let's start talking "Progressive" and "Reform".



FWIW: "Radical Left" still does it for me. I'm old enough to have lived through
the 60's and know a Corpse Flower by any other name.

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Old September 10, 2014, 10:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
Funny thing, these liberal gun owners....
...want only "sensible" gun control.

Riiiiiiiggghht....
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Old September 10, 2014, 10:05 AM   #18
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You don't know that those liberal gun owners DID vote for him. They most likely didn't. Funny though how unions - where folks wear American flags on their hardhats, etc., have large groups of gun owners/hunters always vote for the Democrat - somewhat oxymoronic to me
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Old September 10, 2014, 10:08 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by silicosys4 View Post
Why is one label better than another? We should be trying to change peoples minds rather than calling them names.
Because it is easier to do than actually coming up with a solution or getting away from the keyboard and doing anything. Lately, "Libtard" seems to be the universal term used on gun forums lately to describe anyone that does not agree with or does not do things exactly as another poster. Between that and the words "idiot" and "stupid" I sometimes think when reading threads, that I'm watchin' third grade girls fighting on the playground. Folks can't discuss things like adults, or tolerate/respect any opinion other than their own. Right away, if another poster's opinion is different, they are chastised. Folks need to realize, once they resort to calling names, they have lost the argument.
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Old September 10, 2014, 11:01 AM   #20
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I think some level of universal health care should be implemented in this country (albeit at the state rather than federal level)

I support efforts to scale back the prison population and abolish the death penalty

I am pro union in case of skilled trades

I think that electric vehicles and public transit should be subsidized 10x their current level of support (to avoid conflict over overseas resources)

I'm not at all religious

I don't have a problem paying higher taxes in exchange for living in a more mobile and fair society

I support the rights of women, minorities, gays and other groups

Am I a liberal? I didn't vote for Obama but I did vote for Ted Strickland (a pro 2A democrat) for governor of Ohio.

I have been somewhat limited in my support for the NRA due to the fact that the NRA supports some candidates with whom I am opposed on many other issues. I recognize that the NRA has done some great work for our freedom, but it has also helped elect some individuals whom I feel are bad for the country.

I like the idea of an organization of people who are associated with the democratic party to some extent yet firm on their belief in 2A rights. A democrat politician does not worry about offending a hard line conservative because they will never get their vote anyway. A democrat has to think about guys like me when they decide to hang their hat on an anti-2A platform. They have my vote in their pocket if they support gun rights, but they lose it if they don't. My dream would be for the democratic party to drop the gun agenda from their platform entirely (along with a few other 'progressive' causes that I do not identify with.)
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Old September 10, 2014, 11:17 AM   #21
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Are these the same second amendment supporting California democrats that keep voting for Pelosi and Feinstein?
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Old September 10, 2014, 12:49 PM   #22
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In before the lock.

I just knew the thread would be like kicking over the ant hill, taking a hose to a honet's nest, juggling nitroglycerin, lighting a fuse, etc.

Some of you guys don't seem to realize that there is a large group of people who oppose your views now that are only one step a way from neutrality, two steps from supporting you, and a few microseconds away from deciding they would rather walk barefoot for a mile over broken glass to oppose you after you have insulted them.
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Old September 10, 2014, 12:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemistry Guy View Post
I think some level of universal health care should be implemented in this country (albeit at the state rather than federal level)

I support efforts to scale back the prison population and abolish the death penalty

I am pro union in case of skilled trades

I think that electric vehicles and public transit should be subsidized 10x their current level of support (to avoid conflict over overseas resources)

I'm not at all religious

I don't have a problem paying higher taxes in exchange for living in a more mobile and fair society

I support the rights of women, minorities, gays and other groups

Am I a liberal? I didn't vote for Obama but I did vote for Ted Strickland (a pro 2A democrat) for governor of Ohio.

I have been somewhat limited in my support for the NRA due to the fact that the NRA supports some candidates with whom I am opposed on many other issues. I recognize that the NRA has done some great work for our freedom, but it has also helped elect some individuals whom I feel are bad for the country.

I like the idea of an organization of people who are associated with the democratic party to some extent yet firm on their belief in 2A rights. A democrat politician does not worry about offending a hard line conservative because they will never get their vote anyway. A democrat has to think about guys like me when they decide to hang their hat on an anti-2A platform. They have my vote in their pocket if they support gun rights, but they lose it if they don't. My dream would be for the democratic party to drop the gun agenda from their platform entirely (along with a few other 'progressive' causes that I do not identify with.)
There are many people out there with similar views. I am one of them. Even though I am an NRA Endowment Member there is much the NRA does that I disagree with but you cannot hope to effect much change in an organization if you do not belong to it.
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Old September 10, 2014, 01:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Nom de Forum View Post
Some of you guys don't seem to realize that there is a large group of people who oppose your views now that are only one step a way from neutrality, two steps from supporting you, and a few microseconds away from deciding they would rather walk barefoot for a mile over broken glass to oppose you after you have insulted them.

Nice to know someone else actually "gets it".
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Old September 10, 2014, 01:05 PM   #25
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Thumbs up

There are posts in this thread that make me proud to be part of THR.
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