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Old November 24, 2014, 01:05 AM   #1
george burns
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What percentage of CCW holders almost never train

What is your guess as to how many people just go through a phase, where once they get a pistol, hardly ever train with it ?
I know at least 2, that haven't fired a gun in 20 years, yet still go to shows and buy guns occasionally.

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Old November 24, 2014, 01:07 AM   #2
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Old November 24, 2014, 02:58 AM   #3
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What percentage of CCW holders almost never train

Most. I shoot probably more than most but most wouldn't consider what I do training.

I carry a 38 special and shoot 15k or so a year, but most are out of my bullseye guns at stationary targets.

I do fire about 100 rounds a month from my EDC a S&W 637. About 20 of those are draw from holster and put a shot on target.

I guess I may be overly complacent.
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Old November 24, 2014, 03:39 AM   #4
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I do some very basic training stuff once a month except during the winter months and then it's as the weather permits. I don't do elaborate training but I practice hitting what I aim at, drawing and firing, firing double taps and multiple rounds (more than 2), footwork, etc.. Like I said it isn't extensive but it keeps my shots on paper at 25 yards well enough. I will do off hand shooting once in a while and some gun jam drills but not nearly as many as I should probably. And to be honest this routine has suffered some in the past year because of health issues. I'm getting better though so I am shooting more than I was.
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Old November 24, 2014, 05:05 AM   #5
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Define "train".

I shoot once a week, is that training?

I've said this many times but people who shoot regularly do so because they like shooting. It really is as simple as that. When it comes down to it no one is going to a range on a regular basis for any other reason.
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Old November 24, 2014, 05:48 AM   #6
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Some NEVER train.
Used to work with a guy that got his CWP using a borrowed pistol.
Then he goes and buys a gun, that he now carries.
He has never even shot it! Doesn't know for a fact it works or its quirks etc.
Amazing.
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Old November 24, 2014, 06:17 AM   #7
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Quote:
I know at least 2, that haven't fired a gun in 20 years, yet still go to shows and buy guns occasionally.
Okay, so for clarity (not for nit-picking), are we talking about people who carry and don't train, or people who own guns and don't train? Because your title says "CCW holders" but your OP doesn't mention the word carry anywhere, and you gave an example of people who "buy guns occasionally."

I don't carry now; I moved to WA a few months ago and haven't gotten a license here yet. When I did carry, I practiced (live fire) with my carry-gun around twice a month, and spent a few hours each week practicing four-count draw, dry-fire, etc.

Most gun owners in general, that I know, go shooting between 6-12 times per year. Others (three guys specifically come to mind) shoot maybe twice per year. I only know one guy who owns guns, carries daily, and makes it a point to train. That's one guy out of around two or three dozen gun owners that I know.
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Old November 24, 2014, 07:54 AM   #8
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I say 99%+ of all gun owners never train and shoot their gun about as often as they train. Whenever someone asks me about a gun for "protection", I always ask how often they plan to shoot it. By far, most say they have no plans to shoot it they just want it if they ever need it.

Having or not having a "Weapons Carry License" (the actual wording) has little or no bearing in my "must issue" state. If actual training and shooting were required that might be different. My experience is all "gun people" own guns, but not all gun owners are "gun people".
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Old November 24, 2014, 07:55 AM   #9
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Define "train". In my book, going to the range and punching holes in paper at a very slow and deliberate pace is not training.

Judging from the pull through from basic CWP classes to Advanced classes we see in our students, I would say less than 5% do any training after getting their permit.

Judging by the response I get from talking to my own personal students I run into months later, less than 1% ever really practice anything except punching holes in paper.

Judging from my observations as a range officer watching people come out and shoot, almost zero ever do anything resembling even basic training like clearance drills, combat reloads, weak hand shooting, etc.
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Old November 24, 2014, 08:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
My experience is all "gun people" own guns, but not all gun owners are "gun people".
Outstanding summation. I think you're 100% correct.
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Old November 24, 2014, 08:43 AM   #11
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Even for regular shooters I figure actual training is a whole lot less than practicing. Training means you are having an instructor(s) show you techniques or methods, right? Practice is using what you've learned in training and doing it on your own time?
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Old November 24, 2014, 08:48 AM   #12
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I try to hit range ....even in winter....at least twice a month. Training.....I generally shoot with some LEO's....we critique each other,,,,,
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Old November 24, 2014, 09:10 AM   #13
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I have taken two defensive pistol courses.

I practice shooting, but I find it difficult to practice the drills from one of the classes.
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Old November 24, 2014, 09:14 AM   #14
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Old November 24, 2014, 09:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleanbore View Post
I have taken two defensive pistol courses.

...but I find it difficult to practice the drills from one of the classes.
Something about them that makes it physically difficult, or just too tedious, or something different altogether?
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Old November 24, 2014, 09:22 AM   #16
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IDPA and USPSA are fun and put the competitor into a mode, exercising good fundamentals. But, my participation reminds me that if I were in a surprising and immediate "situation", I hope I'd be able to respond skillfully. And, I reminded myself this past weekend how diffierent that tiny, pocket size 9mm is from a 5 inch model 1911. It pays to exercise whatever you might have access to in a unexpected moment.
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Old November 24, 2014, 09:34 AM   #17
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So if one accepts the "training" number as low then the next question should be why?

I shoot my guns because I enjoy shooting my guns and while my informal backyard shooting may not meet the definition of "training" I have gained familiarity from usage, is that enough? I struggle with that sometimes.
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Old November 24, 2014, 09:38 AM   #18
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Training means you are having an instructor(s) show you techniques or methods, right? Practice is using what you've learned in training and doing it on your own time?
That is exactly right. I try an take one training class per year and incorporate what I've taken away into my practice sessions.
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Old November 24, 2014, 10:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntsman View Post
So if one accepts the "training" number as low then the next question should be why?

For the same reason most people don't run ironman triathlons. Because if you're doing it right it's hard and we don't want to do hard things.
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Old November 24, 2014, 10:54 AM   #20
george burns
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Let's define training, Training is the acquisition of knowledge, skills, and competencies as a result of the teaching of vocational or practical skills and knowledge that relate to specific useful competencies.
As we are a feisty group. I would also say that if you practice on a schedule over time for improvement, you are training somewhat, especially if you study material and put it to use.
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Old November 24, 2014, 11:13 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicharrones
Even for regular shooters I figure actual training is a whole lot less than practicing. Training means you are having an instructor(s) show you techniques or methods, right? Practice is using what you've learned in training and doing it on your own time?
Pretty much this. I see a lot of people who think they're "training." Shooting at the range is not training. In fact, it may not even necessarily qualify as "practice."

A better way to think about it, I think, is that training involves being trained, and is not something you can do by yourself. It requires a trainer with superior knowledge, skills, and experience to your own and the teaching ability to use his or her superior KSA to improve yours.

Additionally, "practice" is not worthwhile if you define it as "Any time I go to the range and turn money into smoke and fire."
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Old November 24, 2014, 11:20 AM   #22
george burns
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I agree about 80%, but reading and studying any subject, is still considered training No place does it say an instructor is necessary. I would say that putting what you learned to use on a steady basis is still a form of training.
Especially if you improve over time, with your accuracy and time. What I am getting at, is the fact that many don't ever shoot the darn thing, yet carry it not even knowing if it will fire.
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Old November 24, 2014, 12:13 PM   #23
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Top Shot....

About 2 years ago, I had a friend suggest I go on the competition reality/unscripted series; Top Shot.
I told him it'd be fun & a good experience but Id need much more skill training & practice.
I said I could spend the next 2 years going thru top training & tactics programs and that would be a good start.

I'll admit I don't go target shooting or take as many courses as I'd like. I would do it much more if I had the time & $$$.
As Youtube.com channel host; The Patriot Nurse points out, there's 2 types of gun training. The static target shooting where you practice marksmanship & the tactical conditions where you practice speed re-loads, clearing jams/malfunctions, transitioning from one firearm to another, drawing from concealment, shooting weak handed/wounded, etc.
My 2 friends that own guns rarely go to the range let alone practice any tactics.

Some people buy guns or get CCW licenses for the wrong reasons. They see Hollywood movies or watch TV shows & think they can handle a firearm.
When the new gunner goes to the range they don't expect all the noise & recoil & blast .
There are new ways of skill training; airsoft, Simunition, lasers, SERT, etc. This may help the new gun owner but they need commitment & effort to be a well trained, competent gun owner.

My state mandates armed security officers qualify once per year. The course was recently changed due to rise in ammunition costs & problems with logistics in some areas. In the past, licensed officers had 3 re-quals then the instructor graded the best score. Now if you shoot & meet the state regulated score, that's it .
The better cadre & instructors always encourage students to practice & train under realistic conditions. This is smart but not always affordable or practical.
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Old November 24, 2014, 12:16 PM   #24
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George Burns said;
Quote:
What I am getting at, is the fact that many don't ever shoot the darn thing, yet carry it not even knowing if it will fire.
On this you are correct. I'll give two examples from one guy I know. He carries a .380 semi in his left rear pocket so often that some of his pants have a gun shaped Skoal Ring, no kidding. He admits to taking the gun out to shoot it and it was so gummed up with pocket lint that it wouldn't fire. Fast forward to another event, he did manage to take it out and shoot it with his son. When they finished he simply dropped it back in his pocket without cleaning or checking it. One week later he had a patron try to back over him and some other folks in her car. He drew his pistol, fired one round into her rear tire and she sped off. As he collected himself he saw that he had fired the only round in his magazine! After practicing he never reloaded the mag, unbelievable. I think this is the type thing the OP is referring to.
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Old November 24, 2014, 12:24 PM   #25
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I'd agree with Al's definition of terms.

The formal definition of training means being taught a skill from another source. That may be face to face, video, or online training, but it all has to be focused on developing a specific skill.

Practice means taking what you know to the range/field and using it to keep those skills learned in training up to par.


Using those definitions it is probably reliable to say that 99.9% of CCW holders have had no training other than a required CCW class. At least something more than 90% don't practice.

Of course, probably something around 1% of CCW holders will ever use their firearm in any capacity (hand on firearm without drawing, drawing without firing, firing all included). That's something none of us hope to ever have to do.

Me, I'm a training and practice advocate, but that shouldn't be a surprise.
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