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Old July 16, 2014, 04:54 PM   #1
usmarine0352_2005
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Is this the perfect gun case defendant?

.
She's a black (minority), female, has 2 children and is single, with no criminal record, lives in a dangerous neighborhood and has a respectable job working in the medical field. I'm not sure you could ask for a more desirable candidate for a gun case.








http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/16...on-gun-charge/





Quote:
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'Honest mistake' leads to Philly mother facing three years on gun charge

By Joshua Rhett Miller

Published July 16, 2014


A Philadelphia mother of two is facing three years in prison after she mistakenly entered New Jersey, where she was stopped for a traffic violation and found in possession of a handgun loaded with hollow-point bullets.

Shaneen Allen, 27, was pulled over in New Jersey’s Atlantic County after making an unsafe lane change in the early morning hours of Oct. 1. Allen then told the officer that she had the .380 Bersa Thunder handgun, as well as a concealed carry permit for Pennsylvania, unaware that her permit was not transferable to The Garden State.

In early 2009, Aitken moved back to New Jersey from Colorado to be closer to his young son and estranged wife. A planned visit with his son was canceled at the last minute and his mother, who was concerned for his safety, called the police. A subsequent search of his car by officers revealed two locked and unloaded handguns in the trunk, both of which were purchased legally in Colorado.
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Last edited by usmarine0352_2005; July 16, 2014 at 05:14 PM.
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Old July 16, 2014, 05:03 PM   #2
Midwest
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I have been following the threads at the NJgunforums.com regarding this. Lawyer Evan Nappen is her legal counsel, one of the best (if not the best) on the subject of New Jersey Gun Laws.

I also have been giving some input into this at at that site. (Read Post #68)

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.p...eless-nj-laws/

.
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Moms Demand Action should change their name to Bloomberg Demands Compliance.
.
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Old July 16, 2014, 05:08 PM   #3
dmancornell
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Sad, tragic scenario.

Lesson learned: don't ever talk to the cops.
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Old July 16, 2014, 05:15 PM   #4
usmarine0352_2005
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Wasn't like she had a choice to talk for the cops, she was pulled over on a traffic violation.
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Old July 16, 2014, 05:33 PM   #5
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She didn't have to volunteer the info, but trying to be an upstanding citizen got her in trouble. The law is not your friend, and the NRA and the other orgs should jump behind this if it has to get elevated to higher courts.
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Old July 16, 2014, 05:59 PM   #6
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I have mixed feelings about this.

Quote:
A Philadelphia mother of two is facing three years in prison after she mistakenly entered New Jersey, where she was stopped for a traffic violation and found in possession of a handgun loaded with hollow-point bullets.
If she truly entered NJ unknowingly (need to define " mistakenly") then this is an example where there should be national laws that are unmistakenly clear and consistent across the country. Otherwise, it's up to the owner to be aware of the differences between jurisdictions and knowing where you're at, especially when there is the possibility of crossing state lines and entering into restrictive territory.

On the other hand, the punishment should fit crime and if there was no ill intent and truly being a mistake and having no criminal background, then leniency should be shown with perhaps a fine but no prison time.

As a responsible gun owner, you gotta know the rules.
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Old July 16, 2014, 06:09 PM   #7
4banger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H.m.B View Post
I have mixed feelings about this.



If she truly entered NJ unknowingly (need to define " mistakenly") then this is an example where there should be national laws that are unmistakenly clear and consistent across the country. Otherwise, it's up to the owner to be aware of the differences between jurisdictions and knowing where you're at, especially when there is the possibility of crossing state lines and entering into restrictive territory.

On the other hand, the punishment should fit crime and if there was no ill intent and truly being a mistake and having no criminal background, then leniency should be shown with perhaps a fine but no prison time.

As a responsible gun owner, you gotta know the rules.
Sounds all well and good, but people who keep track of laws and keep abreast of all the changes are called lawyers, and they get paid very well for doing so. We have more resources, now, but still it's way more nebulous than is reasonable.
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Old July 16, 2014, 06:22 PM   #8
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If you travel over state lines you have to know the laws where you are going. You don't have to be a lawyer to know if it's legal or not. It may have been an honest mistake but it may cost her a lot of grief and money. I hope they just give her a fine and move on but NJ may want to make an example of her.
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Old July 16, 2014, 06:49 PM   #9
usmarine0352_2005
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I hope the people that are hard on her are just as hard as the US Marine who accidently drove into Mexico and has been in a Mexican jail for months.
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Old July 16, 2014, 07:02 PM   #10
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Atlantic county ain't exactly on the PA border; I don't think mistakenly entered the state is accurate at all.

If one is going to travel armed, one needs to know what the firearm laws are in their destination state, because Volker-McClure safe passage provisions only cover the places you are passing through. An oversight on her part, and it's going to cost her.

Having said that, I'm operating under the assumption that the arresting officer is a total (expletive). We're not talking about a car load of misfits here; unless she said or did something to provoke him, any cop with a conscience would have informed her of the law, had her lock the gun away in the trunk and confiscated/disposed of the ammunition. One day, he'll get his.
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Old July 16, 2014, 07:57 PM   #11
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I donít know if itís the perfect case, but I sure hope she gets a judge with common sense. Itís also an excellent case for Federal mandate for universal recognition of carry permits.

Usmarine0352: ďI hope the people that are hard on her are just as hard as the US Marine who accidently drove into Mexico and has been in a Mexican jail for months.Ē

Letís see, New Jersey Ė Mexico. Not a whole lot of difference, is there?
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Old July 16, 2014, 08:26 PM   #12
usmarine0352_2005
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TWiki357: both entered a different state/country accidentally. Neither planned on going there according to the articles.



And I'd dare venture to say it's easier to accidentally cross state likes then the border into another country.
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Old July 16, 2014, 09:02 PM   #13
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Race? Background? Laws.....

First I'm not sure how or why the woman's race or economic background are issues.
I also agree that I don't know how she got into New Jersey by "mistake".
This woman(and other CCW license holders/gun owners) should take the time to learn & understand the laws.
Too many new gun owners or permit holders take 1 class or get a gun then say; "that's it" or "I don't need classes, training, legal defense plans, insurance, etc."

This is why things like www.gunvideo.com www.gunlawguide.com & www.handgunlaw.us are important. If a gun owner or CCW says; "hey so what" or "I don't care.", then I can not help them nor do I have any sympathy.
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Old July 16, 2014, 09:23 PM   #14
usmarine0352_2005
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Quote:
RustyShackelford

First I'm not sure how or why the woman's race or economic background are issues.


Then you can't be helped.




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Old July 16, 2014, 09:30 PM   #15
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nonetheless it was a victimless crime.
Put her in jail and now her kids are victimized.
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Old July 16, 2014, 09:40 PM   #16
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If you haven't driven in the hell hole called New Jersey, you have no friggin' clue what a mess it is. Once you get on some of the roads, it's impossible to get off for a while. I suspect that was what the illegal change thing was about. But, you're so smart that would never happen to you.

As for all you experts that talk about knowing the law.....uhhh, she didn't intend to go to Jersey. It's late, it's dark, and you've never driven the roads before. They are confusing as hell, and I had two navigators and it was daylight. Back off.
Quote:
This is why things like www.gunvideo.com www.gunlawguide.com & www.handgunlaw.us are important. If a gun owner or CCW says; "hey so what" or "I don't care.", then I can not help them nor do I have any sympathy.
Wow. You are a real piece of work. Maybe you should contribute to Pelosi or Harry Reid. That's their thinking. Glad you always do everything 100% correctly. Just wow.
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Old July 16, 2014, 09:45 PM   #17
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Only a matter of time until someone "nice" got caught up in the dragnet. Couldn't happen to a nicer person (literally). Huge messages about "knowing your stuff," "bewaring Officer Friendly," and remembering your defensive driving course, here. I'll at least give the officer the benefit of the doubt and assume she was 'somewhat combative' about the incident, which coupled with the gun, warranted such harsh treatment.

I cannot believe this will actually make it to trial. I assume charges are being pressed simply because she has not copped to a bogus misdemeanor as a jail-free alternative. If she is smart, she'll get an NRA-ILA lawyer to dispute the nature of the charges themselves as opposed to the specifics of the incident in question, for once (by which I mean "yes, I broke the law; but the law is stupid and illegal" instead of "no, I did not break the law, because...")

TCB
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Old July 16, 2014, 09:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
nonetheless it was a victimless crime.
Put her in jail and now her kids are victimized.
Not just victimless, but a petty offense at best. Mere possession of an item that is 49 states legal, possessed by a resident of another state.

As I said, she should have investigated the matter before traveling, but honestly, that's the kind of nuance that is not even considered a possibility by the overwhelming majority of gun people, let alone a mere gun owner. Should amount to no more than a wrist slap and small fine for a first-time non-resident offender. Anything more constitutes an 8th amendment violation, IMO
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Old July 17, 2014, 09:26 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4banger View Post
Sounds all well and good, but people who keep track of laws and keep abreast of all the changes are called lawyers, and they get paid very well for doing so. We have more resources, now, but still it's way more nebulous than is reasonable.
I donít think anyone is asking for a CCW to keep track of all gun laws in every state. But it is the responsibility (and reasonably so) of the individual to know the gun laws (especially as it relates to carrying) of the state(s) YOU ARE TRAVELING IN. When I plan a trip, one of the first things I do is look up the basic carry laws of every state I will visit or travel through. Thereís a wealth of information and it doesn't take long.

I truly feel sorry for this woman, and like most here, I think these laws are abhorrent and I hope she gets off easy. However, she broke the law and there are repercussions to that. Maybe by seeing the unintended consequences, this will be the catalyst for the people of NJ to realize how harmful their gun laws are.
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Old July 17, 2014, 09:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnbwt View Post
I cannot believe this will actually make it to trial. I assume charges are being pressed simply because she has not copped to a bogus misdemeanor as a jail-free alternative. If she is smart, she'll get an NRA-ILA lawyer to dispute the nature of the charges themselves as opposed to the specifics of the incident in question, for once (by which I mean "yes, I broke the law; but the law is stupid and illegal" instead of "no, I did not break the law, because...")
She has Evan Nappen as her lawyer. He is the best gun lawyer who is well versed on New Jersey's gun laws. Perhaps he will use this case to put the New Jersey's gun laws 'on trial' as well.

I relayed the info about "United States v. Cruikshank " (to the NJ gun forum) in regards to earlier challenges to the archaic 1966 Firearms ID law in "Burton vs. Sills". Since "United States v. Cruikshank " is no longer precedent , but "McDonald v. Chicago" now is.

The original reason for upholding the 1966 FID law (and perhaps earlier gun related legislation) was "United States v. Cruikshank ". Since it is no longer precedent. The 1966 FID law needs to be challenged on that basis. And it might help the lady with her case.

The prosecutor has two choices PTI or 3 years in prison. There is no other provisions in NJ. Since the prosecutor didn't offer her PTI, she faces three years in prison.

There is always an outside chance that instead of 'putting NJ gun laws in the spotlight' as this gains national attention. The prosecutor could just drop the charges on the advice of higher ups in order to preserve New Jersey's draconian and very questionable gun laws.


.
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Looking for "ghost guns" which shoot "heat seeking bullets that cook animals" with "more thrusts per squeeze" using "magazines that can only be used once" featuring "the shoulder thing that goes up" and "assault weapons that can be bought at a store without a NICS check".

Moms Demand Action should change their name to Bloomberg Demands Compliance.
.

Last edited by Midwest; July 17, 2014 at 10:01 AM.
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Old July 17, 2014, 10:36 AM   #21
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I think this comes down to state's rights (NJ) to have different gun control laws than PA or any other state for that matter. The prosecutor doesn't care what the GC laws are in PA and he doesn't care who the person is who was arrested unless it was a some high ranking official that might cause him to lose his job.

In a case like this I think that people forget that no matter how onerous they think the law is, the good people of NJ elected the legislators that passed those laws. Unless those laws can be shown to run afoul of 2A like McDonald v Chicago then she has to take her lumps like everyone else. She could do the 3 years and that case probably still wouldn't reach the SC. The attorney should make this a civil liberties case and put the states insane GC laws center stage. She sure looks like a victim of discriminatory gun control to me. A good civil rights attorney could sway a jury here. As an aside, I think that would be an excellent reason to enact a nat'l CCP law.

Although I think it is unfortunate that someone should have to navigate the maze of GC laws, especially in places like the NE, the fact remains that those are the laws and people who live or travel there should know what they are. I don't live there and that's one of the reasons I don't. I feel like those laws run against my right to self defense.

Good luck Shaneen.

Last edited by CoalTrain49; July 17, 2014 at 11:19 AM.
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Old July 17, 2014, 10:55 AM   #22
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Quote:
Unless those laws can be shown to run afoul of 2A like McDonald v Chicago then she has to take her lumps like everyone else.
I think it would be easier to show that they run afoul of 8A. 3 years imprisonment for mere possession of a bullet type that is perfectly legal in her home state and the other 48 states seems more than a little excessive. Unless NJ is willing to put up large signs at every single point of entry into the state that detail the extremely harsh punishment for such petty offenses, the practice should not be tolerated.

Put it this way; how many of our members are aware that California has much stricter requirements for emission equipment on motor vehicles? Of course, they cannot punish people for driving federally emissioned vehicles in CA, but suppose they could? Suppose you were driving around lake Tahoe in your NV registered car, and a CA patrolman pulled you over, then opened your hood, saw that your vehicle is only 49 state compliant, arrested you and you now face 3 years imprisonment for simply having a vehicle that is perfectly legal to operate in the other 49 states, including your own.

As long as states have open borders, there needs to be uniformity and/or exemptions for non-residents to a certain degree. That was the purpose of preemption here in CO (and many other states). I strongly believe in states rights, but it gets a little more complicated when talking traveling residents of other states, since all borders are completely open. Anyone here ever seen a marquis detailing certain state regulations that are atypical when crossing the border? I haven't, and I've been through 33 states by car.
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Old July 17, 2014, 11:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
If you haven't driven in the hell hole called New Jersey, you have no friggin' clue what a mess it is. Once you get on some of the roads, it's impossible to get off for a while. I suspect that was what the illegal change thing was about.
Bingo! Been there done that, was polite to the officer, explained/complained about the poor road signs that was about to get me hopelessly lost in the middle of the night. Didn't mention anything else and got off with a warning, no searches or hassles, and he explained how to get back on the right road.

Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a nat'l concealed carry permit but that is unrealistic given that many people don't want anymore fed. GC laws.
Don't need more fed laws, just need the feds to force the states to accept other states permits the way they are forcing gay marriage.

Quote:
Anyone here ever seen a marquis detailing certain state regulations that are atypical when crossing the border?
"Use of radar detectors is illeagal in Virgina" at the Tennessee state line comes to mind.
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Old July 17, 2014, 11:13 AM   #24
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I live in SE PA and would never enter NJ with a firearm for any reason. When I was first issued my LTCF, I familiarized myself with the laws of adjacent states and unfortunately, those states are NJ, DE and MD. Apparently, this young woman had just received her permit only a week prior and obviously wasn't aware of New Jersey's very restrictive gun laws. While I agree that this is a travesty of justice, in the eyes of the law, ignorance is no excuse.

I wish this young mother and her family all the best in her defense of these charges and would love to somehow see her acquitted.

Last edited by Jungo2; July 17, 2014 at 11:21 AM.
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Old July 17, 2014, 11:18 AM   #25
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The challenge now will be to keep this thread active and on topic, so it remains a clearinghouse of information regarding this very compelling case.
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