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Old January 11, 2016, 05:24 PM   #1
Maximalist
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Anti gun consequences of Paris attack

I notice that this isn't updated much, however I think you all should know that the attacks were used as a mean for the European Comission to strenghten gun laws all over Europe. Its a very long story, but in short there is supposebly a number of people working within the EU to disarm civilians. Using this event as a trigger they tried to push a law tha prohibits EU citizen the right to own A clas guns and (Think AK47 & AR15) and limiting right to own semi automatic weapons. The draft was also very unclear and might affect anythin from a hunting rifle to a revolver depending on how it iterpered (Stupid word).
The worst part of it is that they claim this is a draft aimed at illegal guns and terrorist while the only ones that would get stung are legal gun owners.
In Europe with the problem isnt legal guns (0,23% of armed crimes are carried out with legal weapons, and those few cases its normaly stolen military items).

In my country sweden, there has never ever occured a theft of a civilian owned A class gun. And there has been exactly zero crimes commited with an A class gun. Still gun owners in Europe (by far the most law abiding citizens of all) are ranked as terrorits in the eyes of the few and powefull in the EU comission.
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Old January 16, 2016, 05:45 AM   #2
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What I find most shocking is that the gun control proposal was cooked by Swedish European Commissioner Cecilia Malmström. She has been at inception of the current EU effort to limit the rights of law abiding European citizens to be armed.

Meanwhile Sweden started sniper courses for immigrants. http://www.allehanda.se/angermanland...or-prickskytte

These two information put together just make my head spin around.

Also, there is already a thread for this topic: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=792272

BTW, what is the current Swedish government's position as regards the proposal? Czech Republic will clearly vote against it.
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Old January 16, 2016, 08:16 AM   #3
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Since my wife was British (I was married in London some years back and have returned a few times over the years) I'm a bit familiar with the firearms laws in the UK. In general our laws are quite a bit different here in the US. Must say I'm not surprised at all that the Eurozone is using recent attacks to tighten already very, very tight firearms laws there. Wish it weren't so.

My first thought when reading your initial post was "surprise, surprise, etc."
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Old January 16, 2016, 09:18 AM   #4
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I thought the majority of civilians in Europe were already essentially disarmed.

Can they own handguns at thier home?
Can they own semiautomatic rifles at their home with "high capacity" magazines?
Can they legally conceal carry handguns?

If the three above are not a yes, their rights have already been infringed.
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Old January 16, 2016, 09:28 AM   #5
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President Obama's response to the San Bernardino terrorist attack was a plea for more gun control. Maybe Obama and Malmstrom are reading from the same script.

I always appreciate hearing from folks in Europe. It gives me a broader perspective on the quest for RKBA.
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Old January 16, 2016, 09:30 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
I thought the majority of civilians in Europe were already essentially disarmed.

Can they own handguns at thier home?
Can they own semiautomatic rifles at their home with "high capacity" magazines?
Can they legally conceal carry handguns?

If the three above are not a yes, their rights have already been infringed.
Can American do any of the above? The same as in US, the answer differs around Europe.

In the Czech Republic, answer is yes to all of the three questions.

You might find this table helpful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overvi...ion#Comparison
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Old January 16, 2016, 09:34 AM   #7
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In my country sweden, there has never ever occured a theft of a civilian owned A class gun. And there has been exactly zero crimes commited with an A class gun.
What is a Class A gun?
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Old January 16, 2016, 09:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
What is a Class A gun?
Typically a fully automatic firearm, i.e. something that is banned in US.

Class A:
1. Explosive military missiles and launchers.

2. Automatic firearms.

3. Firearms disguised as other objects.

4. Ammunition with penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles, and the projectiles for such ammunition.

5. Pistol and revolver ammunition with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition, except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting, for persons entitled to use them.
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Old January 16, 2016, 09:59 AM   #9
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Automatic weapons are not banned in the US. Many 10s of thousands of them in circulation. They are in a federal registry and you need to jump through hoops and pay a lot of money to own one. The number is finite, with no new ones allowed to be sold into the civilian market. Some state laws vary and may ban ownership.
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Old January 16, 2016, 10:13 AM   #10
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Automatic weapons are not banned in the US. Many 10s of thousands of them in circulation. They are in a federal registry and you need to jump through hoops and pay a lot of money to own one. The number is finite, with no new ones allowed to be sold into the civilian market. Some state laws vary and may ban ownership.
That is on par with saying that guns are freely available in Europe... as long as they are pre-1896 made.
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Old January 16, 2016, 10:20 AM   #11
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I read this sad account of the surge in gun purchases and applications in Germany, following the mass rape and sexual mauling that took place in Cologne (and other locations) on New Year's Eve.

Not surprisingly, in Germany, you have to go through a rigorous vetting process and state need in order to even get a gun...And self-defense is not a legitimate need.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016..._medium=social

.
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Old January 16, 2016, 10:31 AM   #12
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Age of Enlightenment, Age of Control

So it is, EU does not share a piece of paper wherein "Shall Not Be Infringed" nor "Right of The People to Keep and Bear Arms", as confusing a those words seem to be to some people elected to office, is the law of the land to be ignored and/or infringed, nor are those rights recognized or freely allowed (Reasonable Regulations Apply in a "Free" State here per SCOTUS).

Unalienable Rights? Hah!

Well, Good for them one supposes. I'm sure they all sleep well and safely go about their lives under total control with all dangerous devices (and dangerous people) removed from their midst.

They know best what is best for them. I, do not.

I do know, language evolves if no one corrects them and rights dissolve if no one fights to protect them... and those in power wish to share it with no one.
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Old January 16, 2016, 12:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilguy View Post
Automatic weapons are not banned in the US. Many 10s of thousands of them in circulation. They are in a federal registry and you need to jump through hoops and pay a lot of money to own one. The number is finite, with no new ones allowed to be sold into the civilian market. Some state laws vary and may ban ownership.
Fully automatic weapons are extraordinarily difficult (expensive) to obtain for the average person. Since the registry froze in 1986 supply and demand have a bit of a problem. If you live in a state that allows them, pay the $200 tax stamp and go through a small amount of paperwork/red tape, and are okay with the heavier restrictions on what you can/can't do with it...you can spend, what is it, probably $12,000-$20,000...or something like that...to obtain a full auto firearm. As long as it was registered prior to 1986.
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Old January 16, 2016, 04:30 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snejdarek View Post
Can American do any of the above? The same as in US, the answer differs around Europe.

In the Czech Republic, answer is yes to all of the three questions.

You might find this table helpful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overvi...ion#Comparison
For most of America, yes.
I am surprised, Czech Republic appears to have personal protection rights I thought existed only in the US.
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Old January 16, 2016, 04:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
For most of America, yes.
I am surprised, Czech Republic appears to have personal protection rights I thought existed only in the US.
Well, we did have higher per capita rate of concealed carry permits than US up to 2007. (It remained steady in the Czech Republic between 2000-2014 while it kept growing in US).
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Old January 16, 2016, 05:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Class A:
1. Explosive military missiles and launchers.

2. Automatic firearms.
So a Class A firearm includes fully automatic firearms? The OP stated...
Quote:
In my country sweden, there has never ever occured a theft of a civilian owned A class gun. And there has been exactly zero crimes commited with an A class gun.
Well there was at least one stolen between 2003 and 2010, LOL.
http://www.pistolskytteforbundet.se/...-921530583.pdf
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Old January 16, 2016, 06:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Automatic weapons are not banned in the US.
They are as good as banned.
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Old January 17, 2016, 12:12 AM   #18
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Some of the many select-fire choices which are available in the US are easily found on Youtube:
"FPS Russia", "PPSH-41 Sub Machine Gun" is one of many such videos by this guy in northwest GA/TN.

Select-fire guns are sometimes stolen from freight train cars in the US. Inside info from up the line? Police near Lafayette LA stopped a car which had both these military guns and grenades in the car trunk.
An LEO in Louisiana told me (in person) about the situation during his 'moonlighting' job.

Last edited by Ignition Override; January 17, 2016 at 01:05 AM.
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Old January 17, 2016, 12:40 AM   #19
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You may be making the point for them with your reference;
-The PPSH is an ancient design, only quasi-available at exorbitant prices because a ton of them were made prior to 1986 ($12000-$15000, and only a few on the market at any time --hardly 'available' in any practical capacity)
-I'll go out on a limb and assume FPS's guns are typically post-samples which are most definitely not legal for ordinary (i.e. unlicensed) individuals to own
-Several states outright ban the possession of machineguns (and other NFA) outright --notably, including Texas, though a tax-stamp is a defense to the charges (technically, they can still bring you before a judge even with a stamp in your possession, if they care to)

I know it's fun for gunnies to show their knowledge of legal minutia by chiming in that NFA items aren't illegal (& displays an admirable focus on a too often forgotten issue), but it's kind of like saying a ball signed by Babe Ruth can be legally used in a sanctioned game of baseball

It's flat out annoying when you get jerks chiming in that the status quo is 'no big deal' and people who care so much should 'put their money where their mouth is' and just buy one of the things. As if there is any righteousness in paying fifteen grand for a cheap, stamped metal subgun with little historical value (most are post war combloc) who worth is inflated solely by an abuse of federal tax power (and that's not even getting to the arrogance of suggesting someone commit so many precious resources to any one thing). Especially so when you find out the MGs they have, were purchased pre-ban or inherited, and they never had to bear even a fraction of today's exorbitant prices (but rather stand to eventually profit from them). Not many people in this camp, the much greater majority of MG owners desperately yearn for a time when tax stamps and artificial inflation are a thing of the past, so more toys can be accumulated faster & with less hassle. There are still a few Scrooges out there, though.

"Select-fire guns are sometimes stolen from freight train cars in the US"
It's funny you mention this, because I recall a story about a year ago about how our nation was flat-out giving Mexico something like ten railcars of M16s (something like 100 million dollars' worth), despite a well-known history of that country's armed forces funneling their weapons directly to the cartels they are ostensibly fighting. Some are sold at the street level, some are defections, some are stolen or bribed from storage facilities, and a goodly number are simply offered to cartels seen as favorable to local or federal officials (the gangs are often used as contracted paramilitary groups & sent against opposition, like the slaughter of over 40 student protesters, allegedly carried out with factory-fresh G36's)

National Guard armories have historically been raided with stunning regularity, also (and probably due to similar corruption issues as in Mexico, at least some of the time like with Dillinger)

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Last edited by barnbwt; January 17, 2016 at 12:46 AM.
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Old January 17, 2016, 10:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximalist View Post
I notice that this isn't updated much, however I think you all should know that the attacks were used as a mean for the European Comission to strenghten gun laws all over Europe. Its a very long story, but in short there is supposebly a number of people working within the EU to disarm civilians. Using this event as a trigger they tried to push a law tha prohibits EU citizen the right to own A clas guns and (Think AK47 & AR15) and limiting right to own semi automatic weapons. The draft was also very unclear and might affect anythin from a hunting rifle to a revolver depending on how it iterpered (Stupid word).
The worst part of it is that they claim this is a draft aimed at illegal guns and terrorist while the only ones that would get stung are legal gun owners.
In Europe with the problem isnt legal guns (0,23% of armed crimes are carried out with legal weapons, and those few cases its normaly stolen military items).

In my country sweden, there has never ever occured a theft of a civilian owned A class gun. And there has been exactly zero crimes commited with an A class gun. Still gun owners in Europe (by far the most law abiding citizens of all) are ranked as terrorits in the eyes of the few and powefull in the EU comission.
It is not a strengthening of gun laws, but a weakening of the rights of free people.
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Old January 17, 2016, 05:12 PM   #21
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on 28/12/2015 (give or take) the european counsil refused the commissions new order, on 14/1/2016, the committee of the EP also refused further action against law abiding gun owners.

here is a link to the debates, debate on guns start at 1.52: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/e...g-14012016-(PM), it starts with a very strong intervention of a Finish MEP,(at 2.06.40)

my sister, a member of the EP, said she had never ever on any subject had so many mails from people, all suppoprting the freedom of LAC to buy guns.

Demands for permits in Germany have more then tripled,

Court in Ireland revoked the retraith law into 'stand your ground': http://www.irishcentral.com/news/iri...237427161.html
the times they are changing in Europe, as it becoms obvious that our governments will not be able to protect its citizens, citizens will aquire the means to protect themselves.

Our Belgian MEP in this committee, mr Gerard Deprez, stated that Belgium has a very strict gun regulation, yet that didn't prevent the paris terrorist of obtaining their full auto ak47 in Belgium, ... incidentally, mr deprez stated, none of the terrorist ever applied for or obtained a firearms permit, go figure,

And by the way, I have a friend who legally owns an entire collection of select fire modern rifles, including M4, Tavor, HK417, FAL, FALO, MP5, UZI, TP9, ... including lasers and silencers. He now is on the lookout for a select fire Scar. Recently saw a fully auto BAR change hands for less then 3000 $, an as new FN build example.

Last edited by vaupet; January 17, 2016 at 05:28 PM.
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Old January 17, 2016, 10:05 PM   #22
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It seems odd that so many would so soon forget the lessons of the past.

Quote:
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police. - Adolf Hitler
It now seems that anyone but the government is the "subject race"....
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Old January 18, 2016, 06:49 PM   #23
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TONY K - " Maybe Obama and Malmstrom are reading from the same script."
Yes indeed, they do.

That "script" is better known as The Communist Manifesto.

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Old January 19, 2016, 06:19 PM   #24
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It seems that Czech Republic started using diplomatic muscles on the issue. As outcome of the recent Visegrad 4 meeting on refugees (Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland and Hungary), the 4 countries agreed to oppose EU proposal aimed at restricting legal access to firearms, instead they will push the EU to combat illicit gun trafficking.

This a great news since Slovakia, Poland and Hungary would probably not care about the issue on their own (especially since Poland and Hungary have pretty draconian gun laws by the Czech standards, and Slovakia already has national assault rifles ban effectively).

This is that more significant since the proposal was brought by Commissioner for the Internal Market and Industry, who is Polish (she basically inherited it from the previous Swedish Commissioner and probably just went along with what the team that has been brewing this BS since 2008 came up with). Although once in Commission, she is primarily bound by loyalty to EU and not to Poland, if Poland stands by the Visegrad 4 resolution, it would be a significant stab in her back by her own country. (Last time V4 agreed to oppose the refugee quotas, the Polish government at the last moment changed mind and voted for them in the EU Council, but one can be hopeful that they won't repeat this again - especially since a new government was brought to power by elections in the mean time - hopefully these guys will hold their word).

Use google translate if interested in details: http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/zpravy/min...tspoty/1304596



This is still a far cry from having blocking minority of at least 4 countries representing at least 35% of citizens in the European Council (i.e. a minority needed to prevent the proposal from being pushed through by the other states), but it is a good beginning.


Last edited by Snejdarek; January 19, 2016 at 06:28 PM.
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Old January 21, 2016, 04:59 AM   #25
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It certainly is a good start, if the representatives of over 60 million pople explicitly oppose the proposal. Sadly, I think Austria will be too "conformist" to join CZ & Co in this alliance, but there is also strong opposition against the proposal and our representatives explicitely support the Czech comments towards the Commission on the subject.

Yesterday, an attempt by the Austrian green party to get ahead of the EU and ban semi automatic rifles of every kind (not just "evil black rifles") was struck down in our national Parlament - so it seems the majority in the Parlament is counting on the proposal being substantially changed
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