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Old January 4, 2016, 05:58 PM   #1
MisterMike
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The Cost of Exercising Your Constitutional Rights

I'm a retired USAF cop, now working as a prosecutor. I just finished the process of completing my applications for USAF LEOSA credentials, and for Illinois and Florida concealed carry permits. It's a longish story, but up to this point I've been able to use my USAF retiree ID card, along with an affidavit of eligibility to qualify for an LEOSA card in Illinois. Now that the DoD has come up with a program (albeit a cumbersome one) to get retired LEO credentials, the old method no longer is accepted in Illinois.

Since the USAF's LEOSA credential process is new and since I don't trust that they'll get it right before my current qualification expires at the end of February, I also just completed the Illinois/Florida concealed carry class and did those applications, too. In total, the USAF LEOSA credential process cost me $254, some of which had to be paid to an FBI channeler to initiate a criminal history check. The Illinois/Florida class and application fees amounted to $453.

So, after spending $707, I should be able to exercise my constitutional right to keep and bear arms (with limitations as to where, when and how, of course). I admit that I'm using a belt and suspenders approach that added to my overall cost, but this strikes me as a wee bit ridiculous. In addition to the expenditure of money, I have had to fill out fairly lengthy applications (on line and on paper), have had to locate and spend time to get my FBI check through a channeler, separately had to pay to have my electronic fingerprints submitted for the state of Illinois (same office, different day), then had to have two of the applications notarized and mailed/FedExed.

It was a bit of a learning experience for me. The LEOSA process isn't painless, but it's not too costly ($75/year, plus the time and bullets to qualify), but the average Joe without military experience is pretty much guaranteed to have to spend a minimum of $500 to get a concealed carry permit in Illinois.

There's a high hurdle to being able to legally exercise your fundamental constitutional rights under the Second Amendment, at least in Illinois.
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Last edited by MisterMike; January 4, 2016 at 06:14 PM.
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Old January 4, 2016, 08:30 PM   #2
Sam1911
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I suppose you should feel blessed that you have several avenues open to you by which you CAN.

I have plenty of friends in Maryland, and they aren't cops, so sucks to be them I guess.

What cost should they pay to exercise their rights, such as we see them?
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Old January 4, 2016, 09:31 PM   #3
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And you can always look lovingly at GA where you don't test and just walk into any probate court office with a self addressed stamped envelope, fill out your paperwork and give the finger prints and slap $75 down. About a month later you get your Weapons Carry Permit (if you've been a good guy).

TN is about 2-3 times that much when you pay for your class and permit application.

Constitutional carry states don't cost anything (except to time to keep the state free).

Where you choose to live is how you choose to exercise your right.
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Old January 4, 2016, 10:15 PM   #4
gbran
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Geez, I'm in California and didn't have to spend a fraction of that in time, money or effort. Seems to me, IL is your real problem. BTW, that's as bad as a poll tax.
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Old January 4, 2016, 10:23 PM   #5
Shanghai McCoy
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I'm in Kansas where we can carry with or with out a permit.
But everyone in the media says that it's an awful place to live so guess I shouldn't be bragging...
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Old January 4, 2016, 10:42 PM   #6
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Mo is pretty easy also.
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Old January 4, 2016, 11:07 PM   #7
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Someone has to stay in Illinois in order to continue the fight. We've made very good progress for having a corrupt liberal government running the state for decades.
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Old January 4, 2016, 11:32 PM   #8
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It boils down to the basic argument of "Does the government have the authority to license your Constitutional rights?" The common thought seems to be "Yes" from the tyrants, bedwetters, and the "I always compromise" crowd. Welcome to the reality of the change from citizens to subjects. That is the real "transformation" the Progressives have been after since the early 1900's.
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Old January 5, 2016, 12:08 AM   #9
MisterMike
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I'm not wealthy, but I'm also able to shoulder these costs. Looking at what the average person without military or law enforcement experience would have to go through, I don't think you could get your Illinois permit for less than $400 or so (mine cost more because I applied for a Florida permit at the same time).

Whether or not it was intended, this knocks a lot of people of limited financial means out of the picture; they simply can't afford it. Was that the intent in writing the law? My guess is, "Yes, it was."
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Old January 5, 2016, 12:55 AM   #10
Jim Watson
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Of course a poll tax to charge you for your right to vote is illegal.
But guns are different. Somehow.
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Old January 5, 2016, 01:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Of course a poll tax to charge you for your right to vote is illegal.
But guns are different. Somehow.
Yes it is different. The 24th amendment specifically says that a poll tax is illegal.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress,shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
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Old January 5, 2016, 01:48 AM   #12
Trent
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Dude, you should have kept your LEOSA stuff.

Now that you have an IL concealed carry permit (or, in 3 months when you finally get one in the mail), you are going to be subject to all of the prohibited places.

LEOSA *are not* subject to prohibited places.

Only IL FCCL licensees are.

You really just screwed yourself, sorry to say. Since you hold an IL FCCL after it is issued you are subject to IL FCCL (which only affects license holders), banning you from

* public parks
* libraries
* public events
* any business posting a sign
* etc.. etc.. etc..

With LEOSA (lacking an IL FCCL permit) *you are not subject to those restrictions*, as the prohibited place signs ONLY APPLY TO FCCL HOLDERS.

The moment you get your IL FCCL you *are then subject to those prohibited places* (with or without a LEOSA, being issued a permit now makes you subject to the law regardless of you having or not having LEOSA)

Seriously, man, I hate that you went through all that time and spent all that money, but you went down the wrong path here. If you can still get LEOSA, get it, and cancel your IL FCCL permit app.

Otherwise you'll be subject to the same restrictions as the rest of us mere mortals.
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Old January 5, 2016, 01:56 AM   #13
16in50calNavalRifle
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Jim Watson, JSH1 does have a point. If there were any constitutional language pertaining to firearms, then it might be like the poll tax thing.
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Old January 5, 2016, 01:58 AM   #14
Jim Watson
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You mean like the Second Amendment?

"Shall not be infringed" is not as strong as "shall not be denied or abridged?"

But then "interstate commerce" has been used to justify making the proverbial Federal Case out of almost everything.
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Old January 5, 2016, 02:10 AM   #15
16in50calNavalRifle
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Jim, well heck, I'd forgotten all about that amendment.

Just kidding, obviously.

I'll leave it at that, as any expansion on the basis for my sarcasm will take us off-topic and ruffle feathers in certain quarters.
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Old January 5, 2016, 08:10 AM   #16
MisterMike
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Quote:
Dude, you should have kept your LEOSA stuff.

Now that you have an IL concealed carry permit (or, in 3 months when you finally get one in the mail), you are going to be subject to all of the prohibited places.

LEOSA *are not* subject to prohibited places.

Only IL FCCL licensees are.

You really just screwed yourself, sorry to say. Since you hold an IL FCCL after it is issued you are subject to IL FCCL (which only affects license holders), banning you from

* public parks
* libraries
* public events
* any business posting a sign
* etc.. etc.. etc..

With LEOSA (lacking an IL FCCL permit) *you are not subject to those restrictions*, as the prohibited place signs ONLY APPLY TO FCCL HOLDERS.

The moment you get your IL FCCL you *are then subject to those prohibited places* (with or without a LEOSA, being issued a permit now makes you subject to the law regardless of you having or not having LEOSA)

Seriously, man, I hate that you went through all that time and spent all that money, but you went down the wrong path here. If you can still get LEOSA, get it, and cancel your IL FCCL permit app.

Otherwise you'll be subject to the same restrictions as the rest of us mere mortals.
Yes, I'm aware of all this, and that is my plan. Thanks, though.

The USAF's schem is administered by a contractor and there is no means of appeal if they screw up. I wanted to have the ability to carry if my LEOSA expires and they haven't approves me. I do know that it carries additional burdens.
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Old January 5, 2016, 08:30 AM   #17
Midwest
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The Cost of getting a concealed carry permit in Kentucky

$80 +/- Training course
$60 to the Sheriff
$10 online fee, if you do it online.
Total $150

If you open carry

$0 Cost
.
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Old January 5, 2016, 09:03 AM   #18
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Unless you inherit it or get it as a gift the gun isn't free, ammo isn't free, the holster isn't free, range fees aren't free, gas to and from the range isn't free, regular professional training isn't free, there is a cost in time needed to stay abreast of the firearm laws in the states you travel to and through. In short, yes there is a cost for taking the steps needed to defend yourself and there is a cost for the location we select as home. There is also a potential cost associated with doing nothing.
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Old January 6, 2016, 10:11 AM   #19
Ryanxia
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Cost of Open Carry in Maine - $0
Cost of Conceal Carry in Maine - $0
Knowing you live in Free America - PRICELESS

For the first time in over 100 years, after a hard fight, we do not need any permits for Concealed Carry. No fees, training, licenses, renewals, pictures, fingerprints, etc. Went into effect last October and contrary to the anti-gunners' statements, no issues, no blood on the streets. And most importantly, the friends I have that started carrying, went and VOLUNTARILY got training and want to do more.

But I feel for you guys in Occupied America.
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Old January 6, 2016, 10:52 AM   #20
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First off...this is no rant. Just for information and clarification.
Illinois process: first, apply for FOID. $10 (plus processing fee if you use someone), wait 30 days (or up to a couple months depending on how the system is working). Second: take one or two classes (NRA basic pistol is first, runs around $125, then IL CCW class, another hundred or so). Some offer the whole package of the required 16 hours for $99. Then apply for the Concealed carry license, with or without prints. Roughly another $150. Wait from 90 to 120 days.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining. Just stating that to exercise your rights takes time and money. At least we, finally, last in line, now have the opportunity to do it.
You can substitute some other training for part of the 16 hours requirement, i.e. FL, UT ccws, Hunter safety, Military DD214, but only up to 8 hours toward the 16.
On top of the above, how many of you are considering additional liability insurance. I did. Several organizations offer legal assistance, funds and so on for a relatively nominal fee. Hope I never need to use it, the insurance, but glad I have it. (tack on another couple hundred a year or so).
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Old January 6, 2016, 11:55 AM   #21
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LEOSA says all you need to carry anywhere, that being the 50 states, Wash. DC, Puerto Rico, etc., as a retired officer is your retired ID and a card signed each year by a qualified instructor stating you've re-qualified to police standards in the state where you currently reside.

A local certified police instructor re-qualifies me annually at a cost of $45 plus my own ammo. I have no intention of getting a state carry permit.

I don't understand why you've gone through such hoops. Your retired ID plus the annual re-qualification should be all you need.
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Old January 6, 2016, 01:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
And you can always look lovingly at GA where you don't test and just walk into any probate court office with a self addressed stamped envelope, fill out your paperwork and give the finger prints and slap $75 down. About a month later you get your Weapons Carry Permit (if you've been a good guy).
I prefer the Alabama way much better. Walk into your local sheriff's office, fill out a 1 page application, slap down $20 and (if you pass the quick background check)walk out with your pistol permit in hand. ETA, and NO fingerprints.
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Old January 6, 2016, 02:22 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Speedo66 View Post
LEOSA says all you need to carry anywhere, that being the 50 states, Wash. DC, Puerto Rico, etc., as a retired officer is your retired ID and a card signed each year by a qualified instructor stating you've re-qualified to police standards in the state where you currently reside.

A local certified police instructor re-qualifies me annually at a cost of $45 plus my own ammo. I have no intention of getting a state carry permit.

I don't understand why you've gone through such hoops. Your retired ID plus the annual re-qualification should be all you need.
I think the problem is that a retired military ID does not state that he was a sworn law enforcement officer. A military retirees ID is the same regardless of MOS/AFSC. It'll show branch of service and rank at retirement, along with other pertinent information, but nothing to identify him as a retired cop. They don't issue additional identification for retired LEO's. So his retired ID is not going to fill the bill.
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Old January 6, 2016, 02:53 PM   #24
Drail
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Missouri has been talking about doing away with their permit altogether like Kansas did. So if I go through the "process" and buy a permit and then they repeal it - do I get my money back? I'm betting not. For the time being I am just going to sit here and watch.
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Old January 6, 2016, 10:16 PM   #25
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"I don't see obeying the law as selling out our liberties"
We were not endowed by our nation's creators with these systems of law & representative government so that we might deny their use (paraphrasing Darwin). Rule of law is a two-way amplifier; enforcers must uphold it justly, and citizens must respect its processes in a compact for it to exist & have any authority over chaos. If either of those two parties lose respect for the compact (abuse of power or ambivalence of the law) there is tremendous incentive for the other to reciprocate accordingly, and blow the whole system apart. A big reason for such bold talk about disobeying unjust laws stems from the fact the laws/regulations/edicts were passed or enforced unjustly. Disobedience of unjust laws is a huge temptation for government overreach.

The safe and productive path, such that there is one, is to work within our organized (if imperfect) system of law and politics to effect change the right way, as opposed to what feels good or seems easy. That kind of change is the most permanent, and the least prone to backlash (see '94 AWB). If the AWB and Obamacare can teach us anything, it's that a too forceful policy resolution over opposition can make for some powerful enemies with very long memories.

In the end, the government does not suffer armed radicals. It is sad and an outrage, but it is the truth. Whiskey Rebellion put down by none other than the liberator himself, George Washington. Slave rebellions & southern secession led to enormous reprisals. The Bonus Army camped out in DC led directly to the '34 NFA, the Black Panthers & KKK (along with some high profile assassinations) led directly to the '68 GCA. Panthers again in CA killed open carry (I'd also suggest anyone attempting to conflate this incident with modern Open Carry movements for any reason look into the context of the Panthers' actions). And of course we have Waco, and to a lesser extent Ruby Ridge (which was as much a Charlie Foxtrot as Uncle Sam asserting his authoritay, whereas the raid on the Davidians was entirely a show of force to all uppity weirdos). In the end you'll be branded a radical, anarchist, terrorist, communist, psychopath, criminal, or traitor and dealt with as the government deals with all sub-humans. Even the Bundy supporters in OR are already being consistently (a bit [I]too[I/] consistently if you ask me) referred to as 'militants' by news outlets; a term once reserved for 3rd world partisans receiving US airstrikes...

TCB
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