"Defective Bullet Proof Vest" ???

[David]

Interesting, but scary, story about a possible failure of a police officer's body armor:

http://kdka.com/local/local_story_176141051.html

Did Officer's Bulletproof Vest Fail?

Jun 25, 2003 11:32 am US/Eastern
Forest Hills (AP) Lab technicians are testing the integrity of bulletproof vests issued to officers in a suburb of Pittsburgh after an officer was shot and wounded in the abdomen.

Forest Hills officer Ed Limbacher is in fair condition today at a Pittsburgh hospital.

He was shot in the arm and abdomen Monday evening during a drug sweep. Police say the bullet pierced his protective vest and remains lodged in his abdomen.

Police Chief Bill Fabrizi says it doesn't appear that bullets still in a gun that was recovered were coated with Teflon or altered in other ways that would allow them to pass through a bulletproof vest.

The Allegheny County coroner's Forensic Laboratory Division is now testing the vest to determine if it was flawed.

An 18-year-old Pittsburgh man is charged in the shooting.
******
Does anyone have any more details on this incident -- i.e. type of handgun round (.38 -- 9mm -- .45); brand of vest; material vest was made of; level of vest (IIA -- II -- IIIA); etc. ???

By the way, I always thought the so-called Teflon-coated bullet that can go through body armor was just an urban myth -- right?

[Kevlarman]

Teflon coated bullets? Hah! Another ignorant journalist is at the keys.

As I recall, there have been no documented reports of a ballistic vest failing to stop a round that it was designed to prevent. Of course, there are plenty of reports of officers being shot with rifles or stabbed, but then then again their ordinary vests aren't meant to stop those types of things.

However, there is a lot of speculation as to the long term durability of the exotic vests, i.e. Spectra and Zylon. Apparently, they don't like heat too much and their strenght is greatly diminished when exposed to high temperatures (such as in the trunk of a police cruiser).

[Sunray]

And it could have been a crappy vest in the first place. They're not all created equal. Seems to me Kevlar has a tendency to break down over time. A Second Chance vest can and will stop a knife attack though. Not all vests will. And chances are the flatfoot wasn't wearing his vest. It's hot out.

[SDC]

The Teflon coating on some types of handgun bullets (see below) isn't there to help penetrate vests; it's there to help penetrate motor vehicles, since almost all of this ammo was made for sale to police agencies. As for what hapened in this particular case, if the officer WAS wearing a vest, the projectile likely either hit from the side (where the least protection is), or it missed a trauma plate contained inside the vest.

[Chipperman]

"it's there to help penetrate motor vehicles"

I thought it was to improve feeding reliability.

[SDC]

According to the inventors (Kopsch, Turcus, and Ward "KTW", get it?), they were simply responding to a demand from the police for something that wouldn't smear and ricochet off of vehicles the way most other handgun rounds would. The original style of KTW were the machined-steel cones in a gilding-metal base-cup (left, in the above picture), while later versions used a machined bronze truncated cone (right, in the same picture). The original rounds were only available in revolver chamberings, but later-production examples were made in calibres up to .30 Carbine. During testing, they found that these designs WOULD penetrate reliably at impact angles around 90 degrees, but at a sharper angle, they would also end up ricocheting; one of the designers recalled that the manufacturers of canes used a Teflon compound in the plastic buttons on the tips of canes to help them "stick" while weight was being applied to them, so they tried the same principle on the bullets and it worked. Apparently, Teflon "sticks" momentarily when it's under pressure, and this is the principle at work. The media never cottoned on to this, however, so "Teflon" is like saying "Kryptonite".

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

7.62 x 25 will go through a vest with reasonable ease. S'why Klintoon banned further importation of the ammo, so he said. (Couldn'a been incrementalism, surely! ) Tokarev TT-30's and CZ-52's are available for CHEAP for what they are.

This is rankest speculation, however. Nothing points at this in the article.

[Matt G]

Hm.

I got fitted for a new vest yesterday. New one is much lighter than my 6th generation Level IIA, and I asked if I could get it in Level II. They said "Nope. You have to get it in Level IIIA, because we want you to have the highest level of protection available." I begged them to read the NIJ/DOJ stats on officers killed while wearing vests. We haven't had an officer killed by handgun ammo penetrating his/her vest in the last 10 years. We've had a few (call it 20) penetrations by rifle fire, but pretty much any centerfire rifle cartridge can defeat IIIA vests. My point: make it as light and comfy as you can; if it is Level II, it'll defeat more than my old vest will, but these new ones are lighter and more flexible. If it's not comfortable because it's designed to stop a howitzer round, it won't be worn. If it's not worn, the statistics will bear out: more cops die to .22's and .25's than to .45's and .44's, because there're more of 'em out there being shot at cops. I think I finally convinced them on getting me (and me alone) a Level II, because it's $55 cheaper.


The newer ultralight stuff, like Spectra, shows bad degradation after a year of wear, esp. if it's exposed to heat and light. We had a thread on this recently.

Our salesman who was fitting us to the vests was discussing ways of breaking the vest in to make it more flexible. His favorite method, he told us, was to put the panels in the dryer with a pair of shoes on "No-Heat" setting, and let it tumble for an hour. I wonder how many guys are doing that, and not getting the heat turned off? Heat is notorious for breaking down aramid fibers. (DON'T keep your vest in your trunk or leave it in the car with the windows up on a hot summer day!!!)

Note that the Pittsburgh officer was wounded, not killed. Mayhaps the vest did some good.

Curious, though: did he get off any shots of his own? If nothing else, THAT's what the vest should allow us to do: kill our attempted murderers.

[David]

Matt,

If you don't mind...what brand and model vest did you end up getting?

My friend, recently retired from LE, is looking into getting an armed security job in Florida, and will need a new vest (his old issued vest was turned in to his department on his retirement).

Matt, can you, or anyone else, suggest a good vest (i.e. brand -- model -- NIJ level) under $500.00 for my friend?



Thanks...

[JohnKSa]

I believe the other reason for the teflon coating was to protect the bore of the firearm.

Bullet proof vests aren't!

Even the best soft vests are pretty useless against rifles. And, there are a few high-velocity pistol rounds that have a pretty good chance of making it through most vests.

Also, as pointed out, the vests tend to break down with time. Heat and moisture are pretty hard on the fibers.

[buzz_knox]

There's ongoing discussion about this and related vest problems on www.tacticalforums.com. According to the owner of that site, there may be some systemic problems with the particular material used.

[Destructo6]

An "ear-witness" stated that it sounded like 20 or so rounds. That may indicate a rifle was used, hence the vest penetration.

Then again, it's my understanding that kevlar isn't very good when wet.

[Matt G]

Matt, can you, or anyone else, suggest a good vest (i.e. brand -- model -- NIJ level) under $500.00 for my friend?

Not really. Sure, there's plenty of vests available for that price and less, but they don't hold a candle to the light weight and flexibility of the vests available at the $1k mark. Think very heavy muscle shirt.

Don't recall the brand of the new ones we got. I'm partial to the Second Chance Ultima line. The model of the ones that we got were entitled "Xtreme". (Is everybody else as tired of that adjective as I am?)

[Kevlarman]

Then again, the Ultima line of vests is made of Zylon, the material being heavily scrutinized over on tacticalforums.com.

My Second Chance Monarch is only a 4th generation vest (Ultima is 9 and 10th), and is made solely of Kevlar 129. While it will never be as comfortable as the newer vests, is sure beats any of the older Kevlar-only models I've tried.

[David]

Thanks, Matt.

Maybe this is a rare case where the "cheaper" vest is perhaps is the "better" vest?

[Erick Gelhaus]

Reference Buzz Knox's post re tactical forums, if you aren't already wearing a Zylon vest you really might want to hold off.

And just to touch on some of the questions:
The round appears to be a factory standard .40S&W, though they haven't been able to recover it;
Wasn't rifle fire;
Only one round hit the vest & it penetrated completely;
the vest was well under a year old;

[Porter Rockwell]

I waded through the old and new posts and it certainly appears that the knife maker had a woody towards Richard Davis (2nd Chance).
Do we really need to ask whom is the "expert" on vests?
PS, I've chronoed a fair amount of the ammo used in the alleged vest failure and noted WILD variations in several calibers.
We may end up finding out the velocity needed to penetrate said officers vest.

[shadow 1]

David, have your friend check out NY Clothiers out of Waco, Texas. I just did a purchase of a Monarch Summit for 600.00, but they did have some other ones listed for around 400, I believe it was the SC229 model.
I have held of on any Ultima or 9th. Gen purchases until this Zylon issue can be resolved.