Gun ownership in France -- still active

[Oleg Volk]

Got an email from a French member who pointed me to other gun forums. Those who can read French might enjoy http://feulibre.forumactif.com and http://ar15france.com/forums/portal.php

That is why tired old jokes about French weapons are not welcome on THR...we have allies in that country and they should be made welcome.

[fletcher]

Is there a French THR member here who can tell us what the laws/gun culture is like over there?

[Mikee Loxxer]

We do have at least one French member. The screen name is barman.

[Euclidean]

I'd like to know more about the reality of things in France myself. From what I understand even a single shot .22 caliber rifle would be completely illegal there. I bet that's wrong though.

[barman]

Hi,

I don't have much time to write a full long reply... But,

We have way less freedom than you firearms-wise, but we look good compared to most European countries.

The law ( which is completely stupid) classifies firearms in 8 categories: the first 4 concern what is regarded as "military" firearms and self defense firearms. Every smokeless powder handgun is in category 4 or 1st, and a licence delivered by the Prefecture is needed in order to own one.
It's not hard at all, you just need to justify a good reason for you to own that weapon. For most people out there it's for a sporting purpose. So you get into a shooting club, you fill in a few papers and 6 months later you receive a letter allowing the purchase and detention of such a firearm.

You can own up to 7 guns belonging in those first 4 categories.


Then you have the 5th category which represent firearms designed for the Hunt. Shotguns, semi-auto hunting rifles (up to a capacity of 3 rounds), military rifles re-chambered in calibers used for hunting etc...

These guns are free of detention if you have a hunting licence or if you belong to a shooting club. Once you buy the gun, you just bring it to the local police station for it to be registered, and no one can take it away from you anymore after that.
Note that smoothbores don't need to be registered.

6th category are blades of all sorts. Completely free of course.

7th category are competition rifles like high precision .22 rifles.
You need to belong to a shooting club and declare it to the police.

8th category weapons are antique weapons and their reproductions. Black powder revolvers, muskets, rifles.
These are completely free and anyone over 18 can buy them with their ammo.



With all these stupid laws, France still has around 19 millions registered firearms.

[alex_trebek]

I didnt realize that French citizens can own those kinds of firearms.

Thanks for the info barman.

[Sig245]

Good Post! I was not aware that the French could own any handguns or semi-auto rifles.

[geekWithA.45]

Detention?

What's that? Storage of your arms by some entity other than you?

[Euclidean]

Well I learned something new today.

[Novus Collectus]

Thanks for all that info, I had only an inkling before, but with almost no detail such as this.
What are the laws on carry or transport of black powder revolvers or using one for defense in the home? Can tourists and foreign visitors legally buy and use BP revolvers?
If I ever visit France it would be nice to know I wouldn't have to wait until I got back to go shooting.

[Standing Wolf]

Detention?
What's that? Storage of your arms by some entity other than you?

Probably more like the English words "retain" and "retention." Most abstract English words were originally French, but the French of 1066 and 2007 aren't the same, nor are the French roots of English and contemporary English.

[Oleg Volk]

My friend emailed me info on French gun laws:

Of course our culture about weapons is a beat strange for american people.
But the history explain these laws.

Weapons were for the power, the king and the nobles.
After that was for the emperor and with the world war since 1945 it's realy strict.
For french politicien you dont need a gun. The cops protect you.
Clear but like you explain every body dont have a body guard 24h/24h with him or her.

I explained with more details than BATMAN the french law in a post on AR15.com forum.
copy below :

Hello friends,

Very complex the French legislation about weapons, YES !!
But I could try describe it.

Our legislation is not so bad. And I will be happy to be sure to stay in actual definition.
BUT ! Any new government could change the law and suddenly destroy it and suppress our rightful to have guns. We are always in danger. English history is the nightmare of all the Europeans shooters.

We could have 12 weapons classified in 1st and 4th categories.
7 with central primer (1st or 4th categories central primer) and 5 with rim fire cartridge ( 4th Category chapter 2) all rim fire weapon semi-automatique rifles or handguns pistols and revolvers (22 LR, 22 magnum, 17 HMR).

I think in a first time we must explain we have 8 categories of weapons.

1st and 4th categories are the main important for us here.

The 1st category

Chapter 1 :
It’s all semi-automatique handgun weapons over 7.65 mm. caliber.

Chapter 2 :
For the rifle and carbines in military caliber (semi-automatique or bolt action carbines and rifles). A military cliber is a caliber used in regular army (5.56 nato, 7.62x51, 7.62x39, .50 BMG, etc..)

The 4th category is a bit more complex.

Chapter 1 :
It’s for all revolver with central primer cartridge (38 spe, 44 mag, 357 mag, 45 LC, etc.) and the semi-automatique handgun in caliber 7.65 or less big like the 6.25mm using central pimer and with barrel under 110 mm lenght.

Chapter 2 :
For all semi-automatique handgun, rifles and carbines and revolver using rimfire ammo (22 LR, etc.).

chapter 5 :
For semi-automatique rifles in civilian caliber. Like the AR15 in .222 remington.

1st and 4th categories weapons could only be buy by a shooter member of a shooting club over 21 years old after 6 months of shooting and with an authorization delivered by authorities. Authorization you have to confirm every 3 years.

2nd and 3rd categories are completely prohibited. It's machinegun, full auto weapons, bazooka, grenade and explosives, war plane, combat ship, tank, nuclear chemical or bacteriologic weapons.

5th and 6th sorry, I dont remember details, but you have edge weapons in one of this category and all the rifle in bolt action or lever action using civilian caliber.
For all bolt action rifles in civilian caliber, as 300 Winch Mag, 338 Lapua magnum, 7.08, 30.30, etc... no problem. If you are shooter or hunter, you could buy all that you want. Same thing for the ammo, you could have 10 000 cartridges, no limit. This is the reason why I prefer My AR15 in hunting caliber 222 rem. I have no limit for my cartridges.

7th category is for "armes de salon" if I try a translation, I said weapons for exposition more than for shooting. For exemple all the copy of muzzle loading weapon (uberti, pietta, etc...) are in this category. Compress air guns are in this category too.

8th category is for weapons of collection. If it's a french weapon, this weapon is in this category if older than 1890. For other country’s weapons it must be older than 1873.
Modern production of this weapons using metallic cartridge (schofield, SAA1873, etc.) are not free. They are in 4th category.
Only original model of metallic cartridge and modern or old model of muzzle loading handgun are 8th category free access like remington 1858, colt dragoon, paterson, etc....

Summit :

For 2nd and 3rd categories. Impossible to possess this weapons models.

For 1st and 4th, you must be sport shooter, over 21 years old and need to have an authorization delivered by authority. Authorization you have to confirm every 3 years.

For all other categories 5, 6, 7 and 8th it's free.
You must just be over 18 years old and be member of a shooting club or hunter. No limit about quantity of weapons you possess and same thing for ammunitions. You are registered on the Gunsmith book of sell and you declare too your police office you have this guns and that’s all.

Just some specific points:
a) Silencers are completely free access.
b) Night vision are only class 1 access (maybe class 2 ??).
c) NVG are classified like weapon in 1st category.
d) Laser are free access but usually max power is 5 mW.
e) Classic 2 shoot 12/70 or 12/76 rifles for hunting are free access for hunter and shooter.
BUT !! If it's a semi-automatic rifle it must be maximum 3 shoot (2+1)
If is tubular magasin is over 2 cartridges capacity it became a 4th category.
Finally, if this rifle is a riot gun (pump action gun) it's completely prohibited. Because in popular imagination it's the weapon of bad guys. Therefore, authority prohibited this weapon completely. Stupid!? Yes !

Last point for explain that all is not so easy:
If your weapon is in a definition free and than only one element is classified in 1st or 4th categories. Your weapons become a 1st or 4th categories weapon.
Example: I want buy a modern henry rifle carbine from Uberti manufacture. It’s a lever action, conception older than 1873. I could think no problem. It’s a 7th category. But in reality it’s a 5th category because it’s a rifle or a carabine and not a handgun. And it could become very fast a 4th category. The nightmare begins!
If I want buy it, I need to choice 44.40 caliber. It’s a caliber unclassified. If I buy it in 45 L.C. it’s a classified ammo (4th category ammo), so The rifle follow the cartridge and become a 4th category rifle. Other point, If the rifle is too short (total length under 81 cm and/or barrel under 45 cm) the weapon is consider like too compact and is classified 4th category. Last point, If you decide to buy the long rifle model, the problem is the number of cartridge in magasine. If over 10 ammo, you become again a 4th category weapon.
Finaly you could only buy a long rifle model in 44.40 Caliber with a maximum capacity of 10 cartridges. Complex!! Really, you think!! HA HA HA HA !
It’s not a law we have in France, it’s a labyrinth.

I hope I was clear. If you have any questions, we are here for you.
I hope this explanation make you understand that we are a small country, with a small shooter corporation (approximately 150 to 200 thousand sport shooters and 2 millions hunters), but we have guns and we love shoot!! YES !

and

I dont know if it's clear but this is my personal collection.
Picture is a bit old (december 2006).

Some guns have changed. But it's a good view for see what we could buy in France.

We have discover next week with my best friend that .22L.R. was restricted in Belgium.
It's a caliber completly free buying here. Like the silencer. It's an accessory we could buy like a bread baguette without any paper. I see, I pay, it's mine.

Realy stange our different laws.

[barman]

Detention?
What's that? Storage of your arms by some entity other than you?

Probably more like the English words "retain" and "retention." Most abstract English words were originally French, but the French of 1066 and 2007 aren't the same, nor are the French roots of English and contemporary English.

That's precisely what I meant. "Ownership" of a firearm. Sorry for the confusion.

What are the laws on carry or transport of black powder revolvers or using one for defense in the home? Can tourists and foreign visitors legally buy and use BP revolvers?
If I ever visit France it would be nice to know I wouldn't have to wait until I got back to go shooting.

Regarding transportation, every firearm must be kept away from its ammo in different containers.Tourists and foreign visitors can buy and use BP revolvers, as long as they provide ID and are over 18 years of age.

Regarding the permits allowing you to carry your gun like in the US, we are not granted that right, and that's a crying shame. Exceptions exist, but very few people can get such a special licence.


regarding the use of firearms for self defense, that is not encouraged, and many people ended up facing the courts because they shot an intruder. You may be safe if the intruder was armed as well.

[Novus Collectus]

Regarding the permits allowing you to carry your gun like in the US, we are not granted that right, and that's a crying shame. Exceptions exist, but very few people can get such a special licence.

Hmm, sounds just like Maryland.

Do tourists have to be members of a gun club to purchase or own a BP revolver, or when they say totally free it is almost unregulated after purchase (except for transporting and public possesion of course as you already addressed).
I think you answered already, I am just checking for further clarification.

[barman]

We could have 12 weapons classified in 1st and 4th categories.

I think the number has changed since 1995.

Before that date we could even own full auto sub machine guns.

[barman]

Do tourists have to be members of a gun club to purchase or own a BP revolver, or when they say totally free it is almost unregulated after purchase (except for transporting and public possesion of course as you already addressed).

It is unregulated and you do not have to be part of a shooting club to purchase BP guns or black powder. However, the shop assistant usually photocopies your ID (that they keep for personal records, this data is not to be communicated to the police).

[geekWithA.45]

That reminds me of something someone said:

"The French have been oiling their flower gardens since the (19)40's"

[Torghn]

What are the self defends laws like? I think the worst gun law Britten ever enacted was when they made it illegal to defend your self with a gun in anyway. I believe that was in the 40s long before most other gun control laws.

[Novus Collectus]

What are the self defends laws like? I think the worst gun law Britten ever enacted was when they made it illegal to defend your self with a gun in anyway. I believe that was in the 40s long before most other gun control laws.

I am not totally sure, but based on what I have read about a few home defense situations involving a shotgun in England's news news, this does not seem to be the case.
What is the case though as I understand it is that they removed the claim of self defense as a reason to acquire a firearm ownership permit/license, but I think you are still allowed to use guns for defense if you had other reasons to own it.
Maybe someone from England would know what the case is can post about this.

[Novus Collectus]

By the way, thanks again for the info barman.

[barman]

You're very welcome.

I love the US and I wish our laws would be improved (taking yours as an example).

[barman]

If I ever visit France it would be nice to know I wouldn't have to wait until I got back to go shooting.

If you ever vist France and you are in the Paris area, I invite you to come shooting with me. You can even sleep over. My wife is an American from Alaska and she cooks wonderfully. Just PM me if that ever happens.

[fletcher]

I love the US and I wish our laws would be improved taking yours as an example.

Seeing as you have unrestricted access to silencers, our laws could stand to take a couple things from yours as well.

[tinygnat219]

barman,

Thank you for enlightening us on the French gun culture and laws. It's appreciated on this side of the Atlantic. Just out of curiosity, how does the game of Cowboy Action Shooting fare over there?

[arthurcw]

Well I’ll be dipped! But the French are effete surrender monkeys! The Errornet tells me so!

Ok. So consider me schooled.

I dont know if it's clear but this is my personal collection.
Picture is a bit old (december 2006).

HIS IS BIGGER THAN MINE!!! I feel shame.

6th category are blades of all sorts. Completely free of course.

Wait… All types??? Do you get to actually carry these? If so, you just stomped Texas in the back.

I can’t take this, between Human Weapon’s Savate episode and this I’m… I’m… FREEDOM FRIES!!!!

*pant pant* Ok… I can deal with this. I can… You practically won the Revolutionary War for us by keeping the Brits busy. I can deal. I can deal. French Resistance. Forgiven Legion.

I have to go and watch some John Wayne.

BTW: thanks for the schooling. It's nice to know the evil gun menace plagues other countries as well.