Lead Poisoning --Valuable Health Information - Page 2

PC40 · October 5, 2007, 01:20 PM

Could be a solution for some. I believe you would need at least a properly fitted half-face respirator with particulate filter cartridges. I don't think the disposable dust masks will work.

Uncle Don · October 5, 2007, 01:41 PM

The OPs words were like DeJaVue. I work as a full time instructor and took no real effort until increased lead hit me like a mallet. I tested and it came back 36 and the Doc got pretty excited. I too brought up confidentiality but was told (as the other poster stated), that some stuff is manditory.

He told me to do three things - wash with cold water, take iron tablets and chew about three Tums a day. I also used this link and bought a hand soap called D-Lead. I went from 36 to 19 in three months and am sold on this soap.

http://www.esca-tech.com/Skincare.htm

davinci · October 5, 2007, 02:06 PM

how much does a lead test cost?
a few months ago, the doc told a friend that he had prostate cancer...we were all very worried for him, and told him not to get excited until he got a second test.

He did get a second test, it came back negative...then a third test also negative. now he goes every 6 months and gets checked. He's had a total of three negative tests since the first one.

ALWAYS get a second opinion.... we spent so much time praying and worrying, but I don't think that 'cleared up' prostate cancer.

mejeepnut · October 5, 2007, 06:55 PM

Actionflies-Did you go and have the testing done on your own or was it something to do with your job?I was just wondering if you could share with us how lead poisoning makes you feel,what are the symptems?

brickeyee · October 5, 2007, 07:48 PM

“After each session I felt "weird". Had trouble breathing and felt run down.”

Lead is not an acute poison but a long term one.
If you had lead related symptoms they would NOT go away on hours, they take weeks and months to be eliminated as the body lead level is decreased.

There might be a disposable mask rated for lead exposure, but expect to pay ~$8 each. That is the price range for masks effective against metal fumes.

Metallic lead in a lump is not a real hazard. You can swallow lead shot and it just comes out the other end.
If you have powdered lead you have increased the surface area so much that it can enter the body.
The amount leached depends on the area available for the reactions to occur.
Think about how much surface area a piece of lead shot (even 8) would have if ground into a powder.

Small amounts of lead are vaporized from the base of a bullet by the powder gases and essentially reduced to powder. It is a very small amount though.

The main initiating ingredient in primers is lead styphanate.
After reacting it leaves a real witches brew of lead compounds behind, some of which are soluble in water. Inhaling the smoke allows the lead compounds to dissolve in the fluid i you lungs, and the surface area here is huge.
Notice that the smoke goes in but does not come out?
It went somewhere.

Correct indoor range ventilation flows air from the firing line to the targets to keep everything moving away form the shooters.
Lousy ranges will often have a 'cloud' hanging in the air.

Outdoors is usually best, bet even there a dead still day can allow things to collect and be inhaled.

Bullet casters can get into trouble if they use a flame played on the lead to speed up melting.
At normal casting temperatures the amount of lead vapor is nearly zero, but a flame playing on the surface produces localized vaporization.

Cleaning firearms is another way to pick up some lead.
While metallic lead itself will not penetrate the skin easily, lead compounds can penetrate and be carried in by the multitude of solvent we use for cleaning.
Latex gloves are pretty useless against these solvents.
Nitrile gloves provide at least some protection, but are not really rated for many of the solvents.
I do not wear the 'approved' butyl rubber gloves when cleaning though.

CSA 357 · October 5, 2007, 08:40 PM

I would get mine checked, but i realy dont want to know! i have reloaded and shot cast bullets for a while now, also have a high level of pcb , from a job i had , i would rather be hit by a train than die of cancer, but what can you do?

csa

actionflies · October 6, 2007, 12:55 AM

Actionflies-Did you go and have the testing done on your own or was it something to do with your job?I was just wondering if you could share with us how lead poisoning makes you feel,what are the symptems?

I went to see my doctor about a nagging cold that went on for over a month and asked if I can get a blood test for lead level since I was shooting lead bullet all Summer and he sent me down to the lab for the blood test. I think I'm lucky because at the time I felt OK except for the nagging cold and this was what brought me in to see the doctor. If left unchecked, lead can cause irreversible damages to the body and you do not want to wait until you are sick and then it will be too late. My cold finally went away, but I am depress as hell and will get well before shooting again. If you have insurance and shoot lead bullet and never had a blood test, please do so for yourself and your family.

45auto · October 6, 2007, 06:36 AM

You must get tested, don't wait for symptoms.

I had to bring mine down. No more indoor shooting, plated/coated bullets, wear gloves cleaning, tumbling outdoors...downwind, wash hands, etc after shooting. Of course, don't stick your fingers in your mouth, etc. Clothes?

It was elevated with outdoor shooting also, so it's not just indoors. I'd bet, but don't know, that tumbling is right up there for exposure...below lead bullets and primers of course. But, you can see the "cloud" of dust rise when you pour or rotate. And that cloud of "media" was cleaning the inside of the casing.

Don't the "pumice" hand cleaners you buy at most stores, clean your hands well enough?

redneck2 · October 6, 2007, 08:27 AM

Note to reloaders......There is a write up in Lee's reloading book about a guy that got heavy levels of lead exposure from reloading. Primers have a lot of lead, and the dust from tumbling media has extreme lead levels. Breathing the dust can put your lead levels in orbit.

jibjab · October 6, 2007, 02:35 PM

This is a great thread, I hope we can gather practical tips on reducing lead exposer in our hobby and make a Sticky for it.
I found a lot of info on lead poisoning and treatments when I Googled it, chelation treatments with EDTA is another good search, there are studies showing that vitamin C can greatly reduce Pb levels in the blood.
I bought sum of these for testing but have'nt tried them yet;reloading 020.jpg I use ground walnut in the tumbler, what can I add to cut down on the dust ?

AmbulanceDriver · October 6, 2007, 06:08 PM

One thing I do to cut down on the dust in my tumbler is to add a used dryer sheet to the tumbler. I cut it up into approx 1" squares. It definitely reduces the amount of dust in the air when tumbling.

Methinks I'm gonna needs to swing by home depot and get one of those lead testing kits.

cash-- · October 8, 2007, 02:14 AM

So, does anyone make a lead free large pistol primer?

Darth Muffin · October 8, 2007, 08:06 AM

Does anyone make ANY lead-free pistol primers for that matter? I keep hearing mention of them but I can't find any place that actually has some for sale. If they work reliably I think it'd be worth the extra bucks for me.

Geno · October 8, 2007, 08:25 AM

Regarding the:

Quote:

...used to shoot in an indoor range. After each session I felt "weird". Had trouble breathing and felt run down. I don't know if it was the lead or the smoke from the powder/primer, but I quit going and it's outdoors only shooting and with lead bullets I make sure the wind is in my favor.

You may have mild asthma or allergies. I do, and depending how well my asthma is controlled, I have considerably better energy levels due to blood oxygenation.

Who makes the "green" ammo, Remington? I was told it is lead-free. Also, the projectiles are not solid. They are highly compressed metal powder that disintegrates upon striking a hard surface. I like the Win Clean ammo was well.

Edit to add Remington "Leadless" ammunition link:

http://www.remington.com/products/am...c_leadless.asp

RustyFN · October 8, 2007, 07:03 PM

Quote:

ALWAYS get a second opinion.... we spent so much time praying and worrying, but I don't think that 'cleared up' prostate cancer.

Never under estemate the power of prayer. I had an accident and was blind for two years. The doctors said they couldn't do anything. The power of prayer and the good Lord gave me back my eye sight. I have to go in for blood work every six months because of HBP. I asked the doctor to have them test me for lead since they were drawing blood anyway. It came back as 8. Is that bad or fairly good? The doctor didn't seem to be to concerned.
Rusty

trickyasafox · October 8, 2007, 07:47 PM

under 20 is usually considered OK for adult levels- under 10 for youth

RustyFN · October 8, 2007, 08:45 PM

Thanks

scrat · October 8, 2007, 09:59 PM

Good idea on the sticky. I too am getting a little concerned. i have casted thousands of bullets. i have a good nest egg of bullets now. However i am actually thinking of shooting fmj again. I was thinking on going a year lead free then going a year with lead. So for the year 2008 i will stop casting lead and start shooting fmj. Then i can pick it up the next year.

ramptester · October 9, 2007, 06:26 PM

Sweating is actually one way to rid the body of lead. "Get the lead out" actually has some merit! Go exercise and sweat a little.
Regarding lead on the skin, it is just like the common cold, eventually you are going to rub your eyes or you are going to get some on your shirt and then wipe your mouth, etc. Try to change clothes after every range trip, especially if you will be playing with your kids.
As a neurologist, I see guys from my club who present in their 60's with wrist drop due to radial nerve damage from lead. Other problems occur of course. In some ways it is like hypertention - you may not know you have a problem until it is too late.
Be safe, take all precuations, and consider having your lead level checked. Just consider it a hobby necessity!
Ranier bullets are coated at the base, so they would diminish your exposure somewhat, by the way.

Ala Dan · October 9, 2007, 09:08 PM

Many years ago (late 70's), I cast my own lead bullets in various handgun
caliber's; until one hot summer day I felt a bit dizzy, while working with the
melting pot. Come to find out, the lead vapors were harmful; and I wasn't
using a mask when melting lead. Nowdays, I still shoot lead bullets; but I
buy them in bulk boxes of 500, as made by Zero Bullet Company in Cullman,
AL or Magnus Bullets in Toney, AL.

davinci · October 10, 2007, 09:21 AM

If you google lead poisoning, you'll find all kinds of great information....none of which cites guns as a cause for lead poisoning.

Two of the sites suggested getting a second measurement, that's what they do for kids before they get treatment. I guess you can have some lead on your skin (harmless) that can contaminate the results. Remember, you have to INGEST it for it to harm you, and even then it's not a carcinogen like I thought it was (it's not asbestos).

PC40 · October 10, 2007, 04:54 PM

I have found that a little of the Flitz additive in the tumbler makes the media slightly sticky. IMO it will cut down on free dust from the tumbler.

"Borrowing" two of the lead check tubes from work, I found "some" lead (pink color change) next to one of my single stage presses on the reloading bench, "some" lead on the cover of my tumbler, and "high" lead (red color change) inside the trash can that recieves spent primers from the press. I couldn't see an indication of lead on my workboots (usually what I wear to the indoor range) nor on the floor area where I clean my primer pockets over the previously mentioned trashcan.

Millwright · October 10, 2007, 10:43 PM

Interesting data...one not mentioned but certainly worth a check is your drinking/cooking water. Improperly soldered copper pipe joints wll leach lead under the right water conditions.

Lots of primers used lead styphonate at one time and it was a major source of ingested lead, but I think most mfgs have switched - or am I wrong ?

Controlling exposure is IMO mostly a common sense procedure, with the greatest threat being airborne. At indoor ranges you ought to be able to feel the ventilation at your back. But knowing where the range intake and discharge vents are in relation to the prevailing wind is equally important. Not good to have the air being vented from the range blown back to the intake source....

Same precautions prevail for casting... >MW

davinci · October 11, 2007, 09:11 AM

i think all primers are lead styphonate unless they are marked "lead free" or "clean range", but I'm not 100% sure.

there's too many outside factors to say that a handloader who shot twice a week got lead poisoning from this.

We should turn this sticky into a "post your lead test results here!" and tell us what your shooting habits are like. This way we can actually develop a trend of what's causing the problem and help other members avoid it. PC40 took the first step by testing his work area and posting the results.

davinci · October 12, 2007, 01:40 PM

This article has some information about lead contained in everything from food and candy to cosmetics.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071011/...3B1P3BdSas0NUE

Is it possible that since the metal stays in your system for so long that one could gather lead poisoning over a long term?

October 5, 2007, 08:40 PM	#31
CSA 357 Member Join Date: April 16, 2006 Location: North Alabama Posts: 1,385	I would get mine checked, but i realy dont want to know! i have reloaded and shot cast bullets for a while now, also have a high level of pcb , from a job i had , i would rather be hit by a train than die of cancer, but what can you do? csa __________________ A COUNTRY BOY CAN SURVIVE

October 6, 2007, 08:27 AM	#34
redneck2 Member Join Date: December 25, 2002 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,328	Note to reloaders......There is a write up in Lee's reloading book about a guy that got heavy levels of lead exposure from reloading. Primers have a lot of lead, and the dust from tumbling media has extreme lead levels. Breathing the dust can put your lead levels in orbit. __________________ I have three AR-15's. One is for precision target, one is specifically for deer hunting. The third is for anyone who tries to take the first two.

October 8, 2007, 07:47 PM	#41
trickyasafox Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Location: upstate NY go to school in WNY Posts: 2,521	under 20 is usually considered OK for adult levels- under 10 for youth __________________ unbreakable Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur

October 8, 2007, 08:45 PM	#42
RustyFN Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 3,111	Thanks __________________ I don't ever remember being absent minded.

October 8, 2007, 09:59 PM	#43
scrat Member Join Date: January 27, 2007 Location: Monrovia, CA Posts: 6,882	Good idea on the sticky. I too am getting a little concerned. i have casted thousands of bullets. i have a good nest egg of bullets now. However i am actually thinking of shooting fmj again. I was thinking on going a year lead free then going a year with lead. So for the year 2008 i will stop casting lead and start shooting fmj. Then i can pick it up the next year. __________________ *MOLON LABE*

October 5, 2007, 01:20 PM	#26
PC40 Member Join Date: July 14, 2007 Posts: 64	Could be a solution for some. I believe you would need at least a properly fitted half-face respirator with particulate filter cartridges. I don't think the disposable dust masks will work.

October 5, 2007, 01:41 PM	#27
Uncle Don Member Join Date: April 22, 2004 Location: Midwest Posts: 315	The OPs words were like DeJaVue. I work as a full time instructor and took no real effort until increased lead hit me like a mallet. I tested and it came back 36 and the Doc got pretty excited. I too brought up confidentiality but was told (as the other poster stated), that some stuff is manditory. He told me to do three things - wash with cold water, take iron tablets and chew about three Tums a day. I also used this link and bought a hand soap called D-Lead. I went from 36 to 19 in three months and am sold on this soap. http://www.esca-tech.com/Skincare.htm

October 5, 2007, 02:06 PM	#28
davinci Member Join Date: August 17, 2007 Posts: 269	how much does a lead test cost? a few months ago, the doc told a friend that he had prostate cancer...we were all very worried for him, and told him not to get excited until he got a second test. He did get a second test, it came back negative...then a third test also negative. now he goes every 6 months and gets checked. He's had a total of three negative tests since the first one. ALWAYS get a second opinion.... we spent so much time praying and worrying, but I don't think that 'cleared up' prostate cancer.

October 5, 2007, 06:55 PM	#29
mejeepnut member Join Date: March 31, 2005 Location: Bailey Island,Maine Posts: 106	Actionflies-Did you go and have the testing done on your own or was it something to do with your job?I was just wondering if you could share with us how lead poisoning makes you feel,what are the symptems?

October 5, 2007, 07:48 PM	#30
brickeyee Member Join Date: February 25, 2005 Posts: 2,818	“After each session I felt "weird". Had trouble breathing and felt run down.” Lead is not an acute poison but a long term one. If you had lead related symptoms they would NOT go away on hours, they take weeks and months to be eliminated as the body lead level is decreased. There might be a disposable mask rated for lead exposure, but expect to pay ~$8 each. That is the price range for masks effective against metal fumes. Metallic lead in a lump is not a real hazard. You can swallow lead shot and it just comes out the other end. If you have powdered lead you have increased the surface area so much that it can enter the body. The amount leached depends on the area available for the reactions to occur. Think about how much surface area a piece of lead shot (even 8) would have if ground into a powder. Small amounts of lead are vaporized from the base of a bullet by the powder gases and essentially reduced to powder. It is a very small amount though. The main initiating ingredient in primers is lead styphanate. After reacting it leaves a real witches brew of lead compounds behind, some of which are soluble in water. Inhaling the smoke allows the lead compounds to dissolve in the fluid i you lungs, and the surface area here is huge. Notice that the smoke goes in but does not come out? It went somewhere. Correct indoor range ventilation flows air from the firing line to the targets to keep everything moving away form the shooters. Lousy ranges will often have a 'cloud' hanging in the air. Outdoors is usually best, bet even there a dead still day can allow things to collect and be inhaled. Bullet casters can get into trouble if they use a flame played on the lead to speed up melting. At normal casting temperatures the amount of lead vapor is nearly zero, but a flame playing on the surface produces localized vaporization. Cleaning firearms is another way to pick up some lead. While metallic lead itself will not penetrate the skin easily, lead compounds can penetrate and be carried in by the multitude of solvent we use for cleaning. Latex gloves are pretty useless against these solvents. Nitrile gloves provide at least some protection, but are not really rated for many of the solvents. I do not wear the 'approved' butyl rubber gloves when cleaning though.

October 6, 2007, 12:55 AM	#32
actionflies Member Join Date: April 17, 2007 Posts: 163	Actionflies-Did you go and have the testing done on your own or was it something to do with your job?I was just wondering if you could share with us how lead poisoning makes you feel,what are the symptems? I went to see my doctor about a nagging cold that went on for over a month and asked if I can get a blood test for lead level since I was shooting lead bullet all Summer and he sent me down to the lab for the blood test. I think I'm lucky because at the time I felt OK except for the nagging cold and this was what brought me in to see the doctor. If left unchecked, lead can cause irreversible damages to the body and you do not want to wait until you are sick and then it will be too late. My cold finally went away, but I am depress as hell and will get well before shooting again. If you have insurance and shoot lead bullet and never had a blood test, please do so for yourself and your family.

October 6, 2007, 06:36 AM	#33
45auto Member Join Date: December 30, 2002 Posts: 1,239	You must get tested, don't wait for symptoms. I had to bring mine down. No more indoor shooting, plated/coated bullets, wear gloves cleaning, tumbling outdoors...downwind, wash hands, etc after shooting. Of course, don't stick your fingers in your mouth, etc. Clothes? It was elevated with outdoor shooting also, so it's not just indoors. I'd bet, but don't know, that tumbling is right up there for exposure...below lead bullets and primers of course. But, you can see the "cloud" of dust rise when you pour or rotate. And that cloud of "media" was cleaning the inside of the casing. Don't the "pumice" hand cleaners you buy at most stores, clean your hands well enough?

October 6, 2007, 02:35 PM	#35
jibjab Member Join Date: August 18, 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,248	This is a great thread, I hope we can gather practical tips on reducing lead exposer in our hobby and make a Sticky for it. I found a lot of info on lead poisoning and treatments when I Googled it, chelation treatments with EDTA is another good search, there are studies showing that vitamin C can greatly reduce Pb levels in the blood. I bought sum of these for testing but have'nt tried them yet;reloading 020.jpg I use ground walnut in the tumbler, what can I add to cut down on the dust ?

October 6, 2007, 06:08 PM	#36
AmbulanceDriver Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 275	One thing I do to cut down on the dust in my tumbler is to add a used dryer sheet to the tumbler. I cut it up into approx 1" squares. It definitely reduces the amount of dust in the air when tumbling. Methinks I'm gonna needs to swing by home depot and get one of those lead testing kits.

October 8, 2007, 02:14 AM	#37
cash-- Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Posts: 21	So, does anyone make a lead free large pistol primer?

October 8, 2007, 08:06 AM	#38
Darth Muffin member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Posts: 184	Does anyone make ANY lead-free pistol primers for that matter? I keep hearing mention of them but I can't find any place that actually has some for sale. If they work reliably I think it'd be worth the extra bucks for me.

October 9, 2007, 06:26 PM	#44
ramptester Member Join Date: October 14, 2005 Location: Gainesville, GA Posts: 28	Sweating is actually one way to rid the body of lead. "Get the lead out" actually has some merit! Go exercise and sweat a little. Regarding lead on the skin, it is just like the common cold, eventually you are going to rub your eyes or you are going to get some on your shirt and then wipe your mouth, etc. Try to change clothes after every range trip, especially if you will be playing with your kids. As a neurologist, I see guys from my club who present in their 60's with wrist drop due to radial nerve damage from lead. Other problems occur of course. In some ways it is like hypertention - you may not know you have a problem until it is too late. Be safe, take all precuations, and consider having your lead level checked. Just consider it a hobby necessity! Ranier bullets are coated at the base, so they would diminish your exposure somewhat, by the way.

October 9, 2007, 09:08 PM	#45
Ala Dan Member in memoriam Join Date: December 24, 2002 Location: Home Of The First Capitol Of The Confederate States Of America Posts: 12,883	Many years ago (late 70's), I cast my own lead bullets in various handgun caliber's; until one hot summer day I felt a bit dizzy, while working with the melting pot. Come to find out, the lead vapors were harmful; and I wasn't using a mask when melting lead. Nowdays, I still shoot lead bullets; but I buy them in bulk boxes of 500, as made by Zero Bullet Company in Cullman, AL or Magnus Bullets in Toney, AL.

October 10, 2007, 09:21 AM	#46
davinci Member Join Date: August 17, 2007 Posts: 269	If you google lead poisoning, you'll find all kinds of great information....none of which cites guns as a cause for lead poisoning. Two of the sites suggested getting a second measurement, that's what they do for kids before they get treatment. I guess you can have some lead on your skin (harmless) that can contaminate the results. Remember, you have to INGEST it for it to harm you, and even then it's not a carcinogen like I thought it was (it's not asbestos).

October 10, 2007, 04:54 PM	#47
PC40 Member Join Date: July 14, 2007 Posts: 64	I have found that a little of the Flitz additive in the tumbler makes the media slightly sticky. IMO it will cut down on free dust from the tumbler. "Borrowing" two of the lead check tubes from work, I found "some" lead (pink color change) next to one of my single stage presses on the reloading bench, "some" lead on the cover of my tumbler, and "high" lead (red color change) inside the trash can that recieves spent primers from the press. I couldn't see an indication of lead on my workboots (usually what I wear to the indoor range) nor on the floor area where I clean my primer pockets over the previously mentioned trashcan.

October 10, 2007, 10:43 PM	#48
Millwright Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 382	Interesting data...one not mentioned but certainly worth a check is your drinking/cooking water. Improperly soldered copper pipe joints wll leach lead under the right water conditions. Lots of primers used lead styphonate at one time and it was a major source of ingested lead, but I think most mfgs have switched - or am I wrong ? Controlling exposure is IMO mostly a common sense procedure, with the greatest threat being airborne. At indoor ranges you ought to be able to feel the ventilation at your back. But knowing where the range intake and discharge vents are in relation to the prevailing wind is equally important. Not good to have the air being vented from the range blown back to the intake source.... Same precautions prevail for casting... >MW

October 11, 2007, 09:11 AM	#49
davinci Member Join Date: August 17, 2007 Posts: 269	i think all primers are lead styphonate unless they are marked "lead free" or "clean range", but I'm not 100% sure. there's too many outside factors to say that a handloader who shot twice a week got lead poisoning from this. We should turn this sticky into a "post your lead test results here!" and tell us what your shooting habits are like. This way we can actually develop a trend of what's causing the problem and help other members avoid it. PC40 took the first step by testing his work area and posting the results.

October 12, 2007, 01:40 PM	#50
davinci Member Join Date: August 17, 2007 Posts: 269	This article has some information about lead contained in everything from food and candy to cosmetics. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071011/...3B1P3BdSas0NUE Is it possible that since the metal stays in your system for so long that one could gather lead poisoning over a long term?