Living Trust for NFA?

[GunTech]

Anyone have a trust for NFA stuff? As I understand it, not only do you not need fingerprints and CLEO sign off, but any trustee can be in possession.

I have a number of personal NFA items, but would like my wife to be able to use them as well, without me present.

Thanks

[Hkmp5sd]

A Trust is treated the same as a corporation. Of course, you are going to have to pay another transfer tax on each of your NFA items to move them to the Trust.

You can create a Trust with Quicken WillMaker Plus 2008.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The trust certainly seems to be the way to go; but I'm not a big fan of the Quicken/form trusts. You need to make sure your trust complies with state law and since it is also an instrument that transfers property on your death, there are some other considerations as well.

[h0ss]

You should ask about the Living Trust at www.m4carbine.net. Or actually just search over there for it, a lot of people over there have done it and just as many ask about it. You would probably find out what you need to know. Yes you can use Quicken as mentioned above, but also as mentioned above, there is quite a bit to consider. So if it were me, i would just pay a lawyer to write one up for me and i would just tell him what its for and what i would like to have, etc so he could cover all of the legal aspects of it and you wont have to worry.

[10 Ring Tao]

As I understand it, an LLC is the easiest and cheapest way to go.

It gives you the corporate entity and ability to sign on more than one person, with less hassle and cost than the other options.

Of course, this depends on your state. If your state has high fees, or annual fees, a trust is probably a better way to go.

http://phoenixgunlist.com/article.html

Now, does anyone know the difference between a living trust and a revocable trust?

Does anyone know how difficult it is to sign on more people to a trust as compared to an LLC?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Now, does anyone know the difference between a living trust and a revocable trust?

Most living trusts are revocable. In fact, I would be very careful about creating a non-revocable living trust to hold NFA items because you create potential problems.

A revocable trust just means that as long as the settlor is still alive, he can revoke the trust and name a new beneficiary or trustee. A non-revocable trust means that you whoever you name as the beneficiary will remain the beneficiary.

Does anyone know how difficult it is to sign on more people to a trust as compared to an LLC?

Depends on your state law; but trusts are usually easier and cheaper to set up initially. However, any officer of an LLC can use an NFA item. Whether or not you can have multiple trustees with access to an NFA item is a little less clear. It should work; but there isn't much history on it.

[Soybomb]

Don't mind me I'm just marking this thread for future use

[bogie]

How does NFA stuff work with LLCs?

[Rabid Rabbit]

We're having our lawyer do the trust thing for us before we buy any NFA items. We are also using the trust to protect our assets incase of lawsuits, death, long-term care etc...

[Bartholomew Roberts]

How does NFA stuff work with LLCs?

Again, it depends a lot on your state law.

In Texas, you have to pay $300 to the state to file the LLC and then you have to do regular reports with the Texas Comptroller and other business paperwork. Generally it costs more, is more paperwork intensive, and has more places where you can screw up and invalidate the LLC (leaving you in possession of NFA items but without someone who can legally possess them). The main advantages to LLCs are they are very flexible, have been around awhile, and you can have multiple people who can possess/use the NFA item without supervision.

In contrast, a Texas revocable living trust costs nothing to set up and usually has no reporting requirements, so once you get it set up correctly it is very easy to maintain. The downside is NFA trusts are a somewhat new concept and what ATF may do in a circumstance like multiple trustees isn't real clear yet (at least to me).

For either a trust or LLC, there are plenty of form books that will let you "do it yourself" if you want; but this is one of those areas where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Both trusts and LLC entail legal responsibilities to other people and if you don't form a valid trust or LLC (or if they later become invalid) then you have a real mess on your hands. I would definitely want to consult a lawyer who dealt with these issues and was familiar with my state law (and I did).

[Darliea Voltaire]

Apologies for raising this thread from the dead, but I'm attempting to get some answers on this subject and, this thread aside, have not found a lot of information on it in preliminary searches.

I work for a small gun shop in south Texas. We're an NFA dealer, and have several customers interested in purchasing NFA items; they are looking at a trust as opposed to an LLC, primarilly due to the price difference. So, my boss has delegated to me the task of finding what I can about these trusts. My boss has spoken to a lawyer and will likely contact a few others, so I'm trying to persue other avenues.

So, if you all could be so kind as to assist me, I'd much appreciate it. I just have a few questions.

1) Irrevocable vs. Living trust.
- The customer who brought these trusts to our attention as substitutes for the LLC stated that an irrevocable trust was what we should look at for NFA purchases, over living/revocable trusts. I've done some research on each; can anyone confirm which is generally better for our customers?

2) Setting up the trusts.
- Best case senario would be that we, as a company, can do as much of the paperwork involved in setting up the trust as possible, and have our customers simply come in and sign things. Will this be possible? I have not yet purchased any of the software that would walk me through the process; can anyone give me a ballpark on how much of a headache the setup is, whether using the Quicken program or another?

Thanks in advance.

~DV.

[rust collector]

Sounds like you are wanting to engage in the unauthorized practice of law. This is not only unlawful, but it puts all the eggs in one basket so if anything goes wrong, you have a big target on your back for regulators, customers and plaintiffs attorneys. How's your malpractice insurance?

Irrevocable trusts are used for tax purposes, but to gain tax savings one must relinquish control of the trust. If it's for your customer's benefit, she can't be the trustee or exercise elements of control. Where's the fun in that?

Revocable trusts are much more flexible, but if the trust may be terminated at any time by the settlor or grantor, it could be claimed that it was a sham. Do you begin to see a few of the gotchas here?

[another okie]

Find a Texas lawyer who specializes in estate and trust work and ask him or her to give a seminar at your range. Perhaps they would be willing to offer some sort of reduced rate as well, but to be honest trusts are cheap compared to probate costs or the recurring costs of setting up a corporation, at least in most states. I know people don't like to pay for services, but sometimes you just have to step up to the plate.

[TX1911fan]

Search on ar15.com. There is a guy who provides all the paperwork. I wouldn't do the paperwork for people, that's practicing law without a license. Just point them to ar15.com and tell them to do it themselves. I used his paperwork and my suppressor paperwork came through without a hitch.

[TennVOL]

My wife being the lawyer that she is refuses to allow me to form a trust of any sort. She says that it can cause too many problems later down the line. No big deal since my CLEO will sign NFA.

[brighamr]

GunTech - I just had a trust created for my new silencer. You need two documents (either quicken or lawyer), in addition you must have 3 people as the "board" so to speak, in addition to a beneficiary.

the nice thing with the trust is this: no fingerprints, no photo's, no CLEO involvement. Any time you want to add to the trust, you add whatever items and have it re-notarized.

If you are just doing this for a couple of silencers, I think quicken is fine. If you have a couple of Thompsons, I'd want a lawyer involved. I'm using the quicken style trust for a couple of silencers. If I ever get enough money to buy some MGs, I'll have a new trust setup through legal council just because of the values involved.

[freakshow10mm]

In MI, filing an LLC is a $50 fee and takes a single sheet of paper.

[another okie]

You do not have to have a "board" of any kind for a trust in Oklahoma. Maybe there are states where this is true. Even corporations in Oklahoma no longer have to have three member boards. One person can now be everything.