Typical self defense shooting distances ?

[FMJMIKE]

What are the typical self defense shooting distances a civilian will be contronted with ?

[Double Naught Spy]

Depends on circumstances, but usually contact to just a few yards. Few folks are robbed, raped, carjacked, or otherwise assaulted at greater distances unless the intent of the bad guy is to out and out kill the intended victim...versus robbing them which may or may not mean attempting to harm them. Basically, the types of the crimes make it necessary for the bad guys to be in close proximity to the intended victim and so those tend to be conflict distances. Sometimes the distances open up as the parties attempt to separate, often while shooting or attempting to shoot.

Of course some civilian gun battles are the result of conflict and not goal-oriented crime such as robbery. If not at contact distances, they they are probably from several yards distance or more, such as when one party goes to retrieve a weapon and re-engages the fight.

In home invasion situations, shootings are usually from contact to across-the-room distances. The confines of most abodes limits the greatest possible/reasonable distance at which parties can fight because of walls and such.

Cop shooting distances tend to be greater because of their line of work. Shootings are either at contact distances (occurring during scuffles) or at 1+ car lengths and further.

[skinewmexico]

I've always heard from 0 to 3 yards. Definitely less than 7.

[cbn620]

I too have heard the 0-5 kind of number. I have heard 15 yards is the maximum with plenty of forgiveness for obscure or unlikely situations.

[Lurper]

Since there is no central database of civilian shootings, no one can claim what the "typical" distance is. Those who cite figures are pulling them from the UCR which deals with LE shootings or they are pulling them from somewhere where the sun don't shine.

[FMJMIKE]

So...........It seems a weapon that is effective at close ranges is preferable for civilians.

[NGIB]

I've read that 0-3 yards is considered about the norm. I routinely practice at 7, 10, and 15 yards to stay sharp at varied distances...

[Double Naught Spy]

Since there is no central database of civilian shootings, no one can claim what the "typical" distance is. Those who cite figures are pulling them from the UCR which deals with LE shootings or they are pulling them from somewhere where the sun don't shine.

Apparently Lurper does not understand the difference between quantitative and qualitative data. While there may be no central database, a brief survey of police records, news footage (especially from security cameras), etc. will reveal very few self defense shootings at long range by civilians.

So...........It seems a weapon that is effective at close ranges is preferable for civilians.

Generally speaking, although I don't know that there is a central database for this information and so I am pulling it, apparently, from where the sun doesn't shine, but weapons that are effective at longer ranges, as would be used by civilians, would also be effective at close ranges, but the opposite is not necessarily true.

[Gerald in Ga]

Close, closer, and get the hell off me!!!

[Lurper]

Apparently Lurper does not understand the difference between quantitative and qualitative data. While there may be no central database, a brief survey of police records, news footage (especially from security cameras), etc. will reveal very few self defense shootings at long range by civilians.

Since there is no place to examine a large enough sample of shootings, everything is supposition. I have interviewed many people and read several hundred reports from several jurisdictions and have come across SD shootings as far away 40 yards. While it may be a safe assumption that sd shootings take place at close range because of their nature, the specifics could be much more different than you think.

[TallPine]

As a general rule, if the "bad guy" is not pretty close (like maybe 0-10 yds), then it isn't self defense.

As with any rule, there are exceptions.

[MGD 45]

I think common sense plays a part here guys......I'd venture to say that SD shooting involving civilans are going to be atleast similar to those involving LEO's. Something like 95% or more are under 15 yards, with most being 7 yards or less....

Not too many criminals assault their victims from far away, because it's too easy for the victims to take cover, run, react......so up close & personal it is.

[TexasSkyhawk]

Originally Posted by Lurper

Since there is no place to examine a large enough sample of shootings, everything is supposition. I have interviewed many people and read several hundred reports from several jurisdictions and have come across SD shootings as far away 40 yards. While it may be a safe assumption that sd shootings take place at close range because of their nature, the specifics could be much more different than you think.

Original question was about typical self-defense shooting distances.

As far as "no place to examine a large enough sample of shootings, everything is supposition," I would respectfully submit that you could study and do compilations of the last twenty years of The Armed Citizen columns in the NRA's publications and come up with some reliable data.

If you simply look at those situations, which chances are good they're pretty indicative, typical self-defense shooting distances are less than twenty-five feet, with most being well under even that.

Jeff

[Lurper]

. . . respectfully submit that you could study and do compilations of the last twenty years of The Armed Citizen columns in the NRA's publications and come up with some reliable data.

The only problem with that is that the data like range, number of rounds fired, light, cover, etc. are not provided in the "Armed Citizen". In the vast majority of the cases, no shots are fired.

[Librarian]

Actually, the Armed Citizen isn't too bad a source for indications.

I had it search for the word 'shoot' and it returned 240 results.

I just scanned the first 10 pages of results. I decided to classify incidents where a defensive shot was taken as

• Contact to close - actual struggle, across a counter, inside a vehicle
• Room-length (whatever that is) for indoors but not so close as the preceding
• Long - generally outside; one actually said "30 feet".

I think there were 19 "close" (~30%), 43 "room" (~63%) and 6 "long" (~8%) - with rounding errors - on those 10 pages.

Obviously AC isn't a database, and my classifications may be wrong, and more search through the stories might change the numbers, but it seems that about twice as many DGU happen at something like 'room length' as happen 'up close'. 'Long distance' seems to be uncommon.

----

Ran through another 10 pages worth: total of 147 DGU shootings,
46 "close" (~31%), 90 "room" (~61%), 11 "long" (~7%).

I definitely have a bias to classify a thing as 'room' rather than 'close'.

[strambo]

Good work Librarian, that jibes with the LE data and common sense. So, you got roughly 93% at room distance and under (let's say 7yds and under) and 7% at 7 yds +. One could do a lot worse than to plan their training around your numbers. ~30% practice at 3 yards and under, ~60-65% at 3-7 yds and the balance at 10-25yds.

[FMJMIKE]

Excellent research.........thanks.

[Shaner]

What are the typical self defense shooting distances a civilian will be contronted with ?

If by typical are you basically asking a general consensus or reliable stats that give a certain range?

If you're asking the former, I'd only be able to give you a hypothesis based on what scenarios would take place for a victim to safely fire in self defense. As far as I'm concerned, I absolutely will NOT fire my weapon until I get that cold, sinking feeling that death is imminent.
I, myself, won't be firing back at a would be BG across the street from my house. I still have cover and means of retreat/exit. I think this is one key item here is means of exit/retreat.
The general distance where you think your life is on the line and there's no other option but to shoot to stop the intruder is going to be very vague. My "educated" guess on the most common distance is between contact and 10 feet.

Although the Armed Citizen may provide some stories of self defense, I don't think it's really a good indicator.
1. Of all the postings so far, everybody is making their own judgment on what actual distances are based on approximate adjectives.
2. There are rare times that actual distances are posted there.
3. Almost all of the exerpts are from local newspapers on incidents that just happened. It's not a police report. And facts of the case aren't rendered.

Of course, this is my $.02 and it probably isn't worth that...

[Double Naught Spy]

As a general rule, if the "bad guy" is not pretty close (like maybe 0-10 yds), then it isn't self defense.

As with any rule, there are exceptions.

Distance does not determine whether a shooting is self defense or not. It is silly to suggest self defense is tied to distance and to call it a general rule, especially if the opposition has a firearm. If you are in fear for your life and the bad guy has the intent, ability, and opportunity to do you harm (or perceived), then it is self defense.

[TallPine]

Distance does not determine whether a shooting is self defense or not.

Not by itself, but it would be one factor. In real world situations, there would have to exceptional conditions for it to be "self defense" at longer distances - usually either the attack hasn't started yet, or the BG is already running away from you.

[W.E.G.]

Gunfights only happen at the distance from the saloon to the barber shop in movies.

[GEM]

Happy New Year!

With all these questions about typicality, the issue is whether one prepares for the average or for some cut off in the extremes.

Do you carry a snubby because it is a 'close range' weapon for the typical mugging (although you can shoot them farther)? Do you plan to be in a mall, terrorist or Texas Tower attack so that you need your scoped AR-15 or 338 Lapua something or other?

Such decisions. However, I think the issue is whether one decides based on the average or some cut off in the tail of the estimated distribution of events.

[MostlyGenius]

Good work on the armed citizen evaluation. Librarian.

I think this is a question of methodology. If you have an aggressor at 50', but don't take any action and he closes to 10' before you shot him did you have a successful 10' gunfight or a screwed up 50' gunfight? When does the fight start? When you think their might be a fight or at the first trigger press?

I don't know that there is any way to get really useful metrics about encounter distances.

[Jeff22]

FMJMIKE: Are you looking to design a practice program for yourself, or advising somebody else?

[Librarian]

I think this is a question of methodology. If you have an aggressor at 50', but don't take any action and he closes to 10' before you shot him did you have a successful 10' gunfight or a screwed up 50' gunfight?

I end to go with successful 10' ...

When does the fight start? When you think their might be a fight or at the first trigger press?

Here I think it's when you identify the threat, 'reasonable man' standard. A guy with a knife at 50' isn't much of a threat - he can become one quickly, but somebody on the other side of the street from me, waving a knife and screaming in my direction, cannot be shot without more obvious danger (IMHO). A guy with a rifle, taking aim, is different.

I don't know that there is any way to get really useful metrics about encounter distances.

Well, not much more is worth the effort for me to do; sounds like a nice Master's thesis for a Criminology student. The easy data sources just don't have a lot of data verification and vocabulary standardization.

But part of that thesis ought to be why the distance makes a difference.

As I have thought about it, I think I sorted my results into three categories because it seems to me to break down by how much time one has to aim (and, on seeing the incident reports, I couldn't justify any more precision). I'd call them "no time to aim", "time for a sight picture" and "do I really want to take this shot?" distances. Using myself as my standard, I don't think there would be much difference in how I approached the actual task of shooting when the target is at 18 feet or 27 feet or 36 feet.

Time to aim is going to have differences based on a number of factors besides distance, e.g. weapon, movement, light/dark, other people, home/out, etc.

Other people, of course, may have different training and experience that would make those variations in distance more significant. Just being younger than I am, or having better vision, may extend your shooting abilities beyond mine (which, honestly, wouldn't be much of a stretch )