Quantcast
686 -5 cylinder extractor looks misaligned - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Tools and Technologies > Handguns: Revolvers

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 19, 2014, 01:09 PM   #1
nathan
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 4, 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,754
686 -5 cylinder extractor looks misaligned

Is this normal for seven shot s? I compared it to my 686 -4 six shots , the chambers are perfectly rounded and the extractor is perfectly aligned.


http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/4590510...x058991926.jpg

nathan is offline  
Old December 19, 2014, 01:14 PM   #2
Iggy
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 24, 2002
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,717
Another one of the short cuts S&W instituted was the elimination of the extractor alignment pins..

Can't say as it was an improvement.
__________________
Old Geezer
Iggy is offline  
Old December 19, 2014, 02:06 PM   #3
tipoc
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 9, 2006
Posts: 2,332
It's not supposed to be "normal" the fit is supposed to be better. However...

Does it work?

Does it wiggle when touched?

Does it pose a problem for you when loading or extracting?

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; December 19, 2014 at 02:11 PM.
tipoc is offline  
Old December 19, 2014, 03:02 PM   #4
nathan
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 4, 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,754
I dont have the revolver but this one is for sale at gunbroker. I m just curious if its supposed to be like this.
nathan is offline  
Old December 19, 2014, 03:19 PM   #5
tipoc
Member
 
 
Join Date: March 9, 2006
Posts: 2,332
I mis-spoke above. The fit is supposed to be better but it's often the case that the extractor can be slightly misaligned or appear to be misaligned. If you're interested in that gun ask the seller about that feature.

Also don't buy a gun that you don't have the right to inspect it and return if it is not up to mechanical snuff.

That misalignment can be only cosmetic and not effect function or it could be something else that needs a bit of repair. Which is easy but which should also lower the price.

So to be clear...

No that is not supposed to be normal for any revolver 5,6,or 7 shot. But it shows up occasionally due to sloppiness in assembly or production and gets through inspection at the factory because it functions.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old December 19, 2014, 04:56 PM   #6
MrBorland
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 13, 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 2,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy
Can't say as it was an improvement.
I can. Those pins can break or bend. And unless the pins and holes are in perfect alignment, the extractor can be sluggish to fully reseat, affecting, and even binding the action. Purists, wrench your garments...

The modern design has a small bit of wiggle, but unless it's excessive, it doesn't affect function. It's hard to tell from a photo, but there doesn't appear to be excessive wiggle in the gun in the pic, nor is there likely to be, IME. I've shot the snot out of my 686 (70k+ rounds), and it doesn't suffer from excessive wiggle.

As suggested, though, ask the seller about it, and be sure you have recourse if you find it is a problem.
MrBorland is offline  
Old December 19, 2014, 10:45 PM   #7
Deaf Smith
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 7, 2004
Location: TEXAS!
Posts: 2,679
I bet once you put a bullet in one of the chambers it all aligns fine.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old December 19, 2014, 11:26 PM   #8
9mmepiphany
Moderator
  
 
Join Date: December 27, 2002
Location: northern california
Posts: 15,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Another one of the short cuts S&W instituted was the elimination of the extractor alignment pins..

Can't say as it was an improvement.
It is meant as a functional improvement, not an cosmetic one. This was explained to be by one of the top revolver smiths in the country

The alignment pins were used because of the lack of the level of precision machining that is available today.

As already stated the pins were prone to breakage when a revolver was used at hard for shooting or training. They could cause a jam during reloads.

Once a cartridge is placed into a chamber the extractor star is correctly aligned. Prior or after that point, the alignment, as seen in the OP's picture, has no effect on the loading or function of the gun
__________________
Because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale

Correct Grip
DA Trigger Management
How to Dryfire and Hit Stuff

Forum Rules
9mmepiphany is offline  
Old December 20, 2014, 12:54 AM   #9
Jim K
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 31, 2002
Posts: 15,535
In the olden days, if I understand correctly, S&W left the extractors partly finished, then installed the extractor in the cylinder and finish reamed the chambers with the extractor in place. They then drilled the holes in the cylinder for the pins through the holes in the extractor so everything lined up neatly. They did that because it was difficult to machine the extractors off the cylinders precisely enough to line up. The new extractors are made separately off the cylinder and aligned by the ends of the arms of the star (look closely at the way they are designed; the extractor cannot turn and pins are not needed).
Jim K is offline  
Old December 20, 2014, 01:17 AM   #10
rcmodel
Contributing Member
 
 
Join Date: September 17, 2007
Location: Eastern KS
Posts: 50,967
Jim K understands it perfectly.

The dual pins kept the old extractors perfectly aligned with the chamber before & after reaming them with the chambers.

The new ones like the OP posted depend on the angle cuts on the end of each arm of the star to prevent twisting as the cylinder is rotated.

Certainly not as precise and hand fitted as the old guns with duel hand-fitted alignment pins chambered with the cylinder.

But way cheaper to make, and just as serviceable, if not nearly as ascetically pleasing to look at.

rc
__________________
Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Or all your primers in a glass jar!
rcmodel is online now  
Old December 20, 2014, 01:28 AM   #11
Jim K
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 31, 2002
Posts: 15,535
Strangely, some folks never notice those angled cuts. A few years ago, a friend examined his new S&W revolver and told me the gun was defective as the extractor had no pins. He had looked at that gun for a couple of days and didn't notice or didn't understand why the pins were not needed.

Jim
Jim K is offline  
Old December 20, 2014, 01:52 AM   #12
rcmodel
Contributing Member
 
 
Join Date: September 17, 2007
Location: Eastern KS
Posts: 50,967
So true.

I have had the same guy bring two newer S&W's to me because the pins were missing.

I explained to him the first time why they were no longer used.
And thought I did a pretty good job of pointing out the angle cuts on the star preventing twisting and over rotation when there were no rounds in the cylinder.

Apparently not good enough though.

Cause he brought the next one in to have me look at it too.

It seems.
Some people can just look at a mechanical device, see things like that, and understand how it is supposed to work.

And others can't.

rc
__________________
Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Or all your primers in a glass jar!
rcmodel is online now  
Old December 20, 2014, 01:50 PM   #13
Master Blaster
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 26, 2002
Location: Delaware home of tax free shopping
Posts: 4,711
Looks fine to me. The current angled cuts are an improvement on the old pins. The gun in the picture is most likely just fine.
__________________
יזכר לא עד פעם
Master Blaster is offline  
Old December 20, 2014, 06:50 PM   #14
fastbolt
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 26, 2002
Location: Within the lightning
Posts: 2,410
Yep, better machining methods make it easier to make revolvers and yet still help keep the costs down.

I rather like how cylinder extractor pin breakage is no longer one of the possible things might require repair.

Yes, new style extractors are aligned and properly positioned by the presence of cartridge cases inside the cylinder charge holes nowadays. Some owners may not notice the angled cuts. The 5-shot extractors look ... interesting ... with their angled cuts.

Extractors are cut using a tool made at the factory. It's the appropriate size trigger, fitted with a hardened cutting "hand", with a steel bar welded to the trigger to provide leverage for the cutting hand to cut the tip off the extractor ratchets (as the trigger is pulled for each ratchet cut). Properly sized Dummy rounds are used in the charge holes, to position and hold the extractor, so the ratchets are cut in the position they will have to be when live ammo is in the charge holes, so carry-up (often called 'timing' by some folks) is correct. Some filing may still be required (especially of a long-tail ratchet conditions occurs).

Revolver armorers are taught how to use the tool to cut new extractors, if required. I ordered several extra extractors after the class, just to practice cutting and fitting them, since we were only given 1 extractor to cut for our class gun.

The lack of extractor pins may bother some owners who like the "traditional" way of how the guns were made, but there's nothing wrong with making improvements in manufacturing, production and design.

In my revolver armorer class we were told that it used to take 7 machines to make a single revolver hammer. MIM hammers are simpler and less costly to make, and are much more precise in tolerances.

It used to take 75 machining steps to make a revolver frame (w/o barrel), whereas the new frame require 3 machining "steps" and then off to heat treat. CNC cutters are a good thing.

Can you imagine the cost involved if they still had to use all the older hand controlled machines, and the machinist operators needed for all those older machining steps?

Hard-fitting, extensive machining and individual hand fitting each revolver made may sound nice from a nostalgic perspective for the "traditionalists", but would they actually be willing to pay the cost of hiring and training all those machinists (who age and retire), maintaining and servicing the individual old machines which aren't self-monitoring via computers, and then having to accept reduced production capacity (fewer revolvers made for sale) because of the more labor-intensive production methods (which would obviously add even more to the per unit cost)?

__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.