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Old April 20, 2015, 02:34 PM   #1
Stormin.40
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Just for fun

Shot my 1858 Remington cap and ball revolver again this weekend. Everyone likes pictures so I thought I would share.

I haven't played with it much yet. Still need to try different charge weights and compare the lubed wad vs. bore butter for accuracy. It is a new production Uberti and has a pretty tall front sight, once I determine the best accuracy load I will adjust the sights to that.
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Old April 20, 2015, 04:00 PM   #2
igotta40
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Stormin,

Could you elaborate on the bore butter vs. lubed wad? I thought a loaded cylinder has both. I have a '58 also, unfired, so I'd like to shoot it.
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Old April 20, 2015, 04:30 PM   #3
swathdiver
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I don't think he means bore butter over the balls, that would be a mess and useless.

In my testing, a lubed felt wad was more accurate than grease over the ball.

For my slow twist Pietta, .454 from Lee Mold, .480 lubed felt wad (Durfelt) and 35 grains of Graf's BP.

If this Uberti is 2007 or newer, it will have a fast twist barrel. Shouldn't take as much powder but some fellas with them still shoot very well with .457 round balls and 37 grains of BP with a wad.
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Old April 20, 2015, 04:38 PM   #4
Stormin.40
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I am new to this as well, so maybe others will come by and correct any errors in my logic.

When I use lubed wads, I seat them over the powder and then seat the ball on top. When using bore butter, I seat the ball on top of the powder and put the bore butter over the top of the ball, no wad.

In my limited experience with firearms, none are alike and all take tinkering to find the sweet spot. I intend to play with the charge weight, 15gr - 40gr, and see what seems to work the best. Using lubed wads is easier but may not give me the best accuracy, if my gun likes the ball seated on top of the powder I may have to experiment with a filler to get the best accuracy.

I am not a target shooter, but do like to know what works best in my guns. I expect this process to take a while.
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Old April 20, 2015, 04:42 PM   #5
Stormin.40
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Swathdiver,

Can you explain how the twist rate effects accuracy?

Does Uberti use a faster twist rate for those that want to use a conversion cylinder? My front sight is way to high for round balls but I expect it would be close for 45LC.
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Old April 20, 2015, 07:14 PM   #6
Crawdad1
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Quote:
In my limited experience with firearms, none are alike and all take tinkering to find the sweet spot

I agree you really have to shoot them to find their sweet spots. I find that the Remington has a broader range of loads they like as opposed to the Colt but, that being said, they all have that one particular combination. That's the fun of these things the experimenting with different loadings.


Good luck!!

Last edited by Crawdad1; April 20, 2015 at 07:28 PM.
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Old April 20, 2015, 10:31 PM   #7
damoc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swathdiver View Post
I don't think he means bore butter over the balls, that would be a mess and useless.

In my testing, a lubed felt wad was more accurate than grease over the ball.

For my slow twist Pietta, .454 from Lee Mold, .480 lubed felt wad (Durfelt) and 35 grains of Graf's BP.

If this Uberti is 2007 or newer, it will have a fast twist barrel. Shouldn't take as much powder but some fellas with them still shoot very well with .457 round balls and 37 grains of BP with a wad.
bore butter over the ball is very effective I do prefer something a little stiffer though
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Old April 21, 2015, 11:56 AM   #8
kBob
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Grease on top of the balls and no wad between the powder and ball is the traditional manner with BP revolvers. It was taught that way by the NRA in their BP pistol and revolver courses.

There are folks here that will now trot out references to Elmer Keith using wads.

Felt wads in revolvers are a "new" thing (if you happen to be an olde fart)and confuse some folks. Occassionally one will find someone that "Knows What They Are Doing" attempting to use patches in BP revolvers. This is because they read or heard about using wads and thought this is was what was meant.

The wads mentioned around here are precut bits of lubed felt made to fit the chambers of the revolvers. Some folks us this instead of grease on top of balls because it tends to me MUCH less messy in use and clean up.

Some even use both.

Store bought wads, current cap and powder costs and store bought bullets combine to make shooting BP revolvers MORE expensive than the Metallic cased ammo made by the reloader that cast his own bullets. So some of us Cheap Folks continue to use Mom's Crisco on revolvers and just deal with the mess.

-kBob
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Old April 21, 2015, 01:30 PM   #9
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I don't think he means bore butter over the balls, that would be a mess and useless.
But that's exactly how it is used. And yes it IS very messy. But it's not useless. It ensures that the fouling in the bore doesn't build up and affect the consistency.

I've got another option for lubing the balls and bore that works great for me. I use a single drop of Canola cooking oil placed down in the joint of the ball to the chamber wall. Surface tension makes it run around and leave a little stuck in the joint. And it's far neater to use than finger fulls of Crisco or Bore Butter.

I learned of this from a cowboy action shooter off You Tube that does it this way because it's so much faster to do when reloading between stages at cowboy action matches. That and since I load the ball down onto 30 grains of powder for my own .44 loads it means that the ball is set well back. I'd go through buckets of grease if I didn't use this oil drop method. And in use it's far and away faster, not to mention virtually free, compared to lubed felt wads.

The Canola (rape seed) oil is also highly compatible with the BP fouling. It lifts and mixes the soot to produce a slick oily black goop that looks like ink. But it remains wonderfully slippery. At the same time I put the drops down in the V's between ball and chamber wall I put a drop at the base pin or arbor to cylinder joint. This keep the cylinders running freely all day long.

And at the end of the day because it's oily instead of greasy it cleans up more easily than greases or lards.
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Old April 21, 2015, 03:11 PM   #10
swathdiver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormin.40 View Post
Swathdiver,

Can you explain how the twist rate effects accuracy?
The tighter the twist (lower number) the faster the round will spin which provides stability and greater accuracy, generally speaking of course. Also, a tighter twist will generally require less propellant being used for the aformentioned reason.

However, in our cap and ball revolvers this won't mean much if anything when using round balls. It will make the use of conicals and bullets more accurate though, especially past 25 yards.

Plain old bore butter will splatter and be gone if used to grease over the balls after the first shot. Maybe up where them Yankees live, where it's cold, the bore butter is thicker and it may not be so. But down here in the south, it runs like maple syrup and is best used for lubricating and cleaning. A tallow and beeswax mixture is far more effective, especially in warmer weather.

While there's nothing new under the sun, the lubricated felt wad didn't come into more widespread use until the early 20th century, long after these guns were deemed obsolete.

Yeah, I've had a few expert gun shop owners tell me that they shoot cap and ball sixguns with a patched round ball.
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Old April 21, 2015, 03:53 PM   #11
Stormin.40
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Thanks for explaining the twist rate effects on accuracy.

It hasn't warmed up much here in Wisconsin, but I can see how bore butter could cause a mess if left sitting around on a hot day.

Thanks.
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Old April 22, 2015, 08:42 AM   #12
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You guys that own those cap guns, but have yet to shoot 'em need to read up on this forum and get started. You don't know what you're missing!
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Old April 22, 2015, 10:12 AM   #13
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Well bore butter or whatever, its all pretty much a liquid on the remaining chambers after the first shot. Even bees wax melts at 150 degrees.

I have evolved to grease over the ball instead of wads for the simple matter of time, cost and effort.

I like BCRIDERS drop of oil idea, just trying to find a pin oiler that won't leak all over the kit. Wonder if Ballistol would work as well as the canola oil. Get some cleaning action going as well as residue softening.
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Old April 22, 2015, 10:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
if my gun likes the ball seated on top of the powder I may have to experiment with a filler to get the best accuracy.
I agree. My Signature Series 1860 Army liked the ball seated as close to the rifling as possible so I used 2 wads in the load. While I never really tested this theory at a range it shot well enough for me and could hit a beer can at 20 paces, (that's about the extent of my scientific testing)

I remember reading in the books written by Sam Fadala's back in the 70's that he suggested that also. Use a filler or wads to get the ball as close to the rifling as possible for best accuracy.

But my Uberti built 1860 Army that I have and shoot now it doesn't seem to matter where you seat in ball in the chamber. Using a 25 grain load and one OX Yoke Wonder Wad with a 454 ball it is more accurate then my Signature Series Colt. BUT I really didn't work with the Sig Series Colt enough before I sold it to really make an accurate comparison between the two.
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Old April 22, 2015, 11:42 AM   #15
Smokin'Joe
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I agree with BCRider on using canola oil. Take a look at my recent post:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...55#post9871955
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Old April 22, 2015, 03:20 PM   #16
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robhof

It's been written before and I've tested with a rest with and without filler in my ROA, Walker and 1860 clone and found no discernable differences in groups. Now if you're talking modern powders and modern revolvers, there's a definite difference with 45Colt loads in my Blackhawk and 357Max loads in my DW supermag, the best groups are from bullets seated just below the end of the cylinder. With B/P I just use a wad and have fun, with mag level loads in modern revolvers I use all tricks at my disposal>
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Old April 22, 2015, 04:27 PM   #17
Stormin.40
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Interesting idea, using canola oil in a dropper. Seems easy enough but even better seems cheap and I like cheap. The lubed wads are easy but add about $0.10 per shot. I don't shoot enough to get into cutting and lubing my own.
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Old April 22, 2015, 11:06 PM   #18
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You can make your own lubricated felt wads for less than .03 cents each.
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