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Old June 15, 2016, 01:21 PM   #1
Glen
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Cylinder Bolt Issue on 1858 Remington

I have a Pietta Remington 1858 brass framed revolver. It has worked fine for years, but now the bolt stop comes up at unpredictable times when I have it at half cock and am rotating the cylinder. Actually, the bolt stop rides on the cylinder at all times. I guess the problem is the trigger bolt spring. I am not sure how to fix this. Flatten the spring? Put more bend in it? Get a new spring? Maybe it's something else.

I am a bozo when it comes to gunsmithing. Maybe this is real easy. I hope.
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Old June 15, 2016, 01:34 PM   #2
Jim K
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You can get a new spring easily and even a new bolt and hammer, if needed. But with a brass frame, I think I would want to give the gun a thorough examination to make sure none of the screw holes is worn out of round. If that is the case, the best approach might be to buy a new gun (and maybe pass up the brass this time).

Replacing the spring is easy; just remove the trigger guard (one screw ahead of the guard bow). You will see a second screw that holds the bolt and trigger spring. The shapes of the parts is different from that of the Colt, but the idea is the same. The spring might require some fitting, but usually they are just drop in, even from different manufacturers.

Jim
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Old June 15, 2016, 02:02 PM   #3
denster
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It does not sound like the problem is with the trigger bolt spring. Most likely there is excessive wear to the leg of the bolt that interacts with the cam. Less likely is excessive wear to the cam. In any case the leg of the bolt is sliding past the cam on the hammer and allowing the bolt to rise before it should.
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Old June 15, 2016, 02:10 PM   #4
mr wack
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can't he "bend" the cam leg out a hair to make better contact with the cam ,?
Just curious,,,
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Old June 15, 2016, 02:25 PM   #5
denster
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The bolt is supposed to be a spring temper. If it has lost it's spring and bent the only safe way to attempt to repair is to anneal it, straighten it, re-harden then re-temper. Just trying to bend it back into shape frequently results in a broken bolt leg.
The bolt is an inexpensive piece probably best to replace it but it will require a bit of fitting. Best to take it apart and figure just what is wrong first.
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Old June 15, 2016, 04:24 PM   #6
Glen
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Well....

I do appreciate the responses. I would just as soon send it to someone to go over the whole thing and make it happy again. The problem could just be wear of some part. I have shot this gun a lot over the years. Problem is I live in a small town and we have lost our gunsmiths over time. Anybody know where I could send this thing? The barrel says Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc. and it also says F.LLIPIETTA-MADE IN ITALY. I don't think CVA fixes these guns anymore and Italy takes the summer off for vacation.

I would send it away to get fixed or travel some distance to a good gunsmith to get it fixed. I live in Grants Pass, Oregon. Anyone have any ideas?

The good news is that I also have an 1858 Remington (steel framed) Uberti which I have rarely shot because it is so purdy. I guess I will use it now.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Any more info would be nice. Thanks!
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Old June 15, 2016, 10:02 PM   #7
denster
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There is a guy posts on this forum goes by 45Dragoon look for one of his posts and click on his signature line. He makes a business of working on percussion revolvers. This should be right up his alley.
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Old June 15, 2016, 10:05 PM   #8
denster
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Glen

Save you some time here is his link.

http://www.goonsgunworks.com/
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Old June 15, 2016, 11:07 PM   #9
44 Dave
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Take the trigger guard off, clean the gook out of there see if the trigger/bolt spring is ok. Then put a little pressure on the bolt it may not being returned enough to lock over the cam on the hammer. Compare the spring to the one in your Uberti.
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Old June 16, 2016, 01:09 AM   #10
Old Fuff
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The most likely cause is a fairly common one. The hammer has a round cam on the bottom/front that times the cylinder bolt when it drops down when you start to cock the hammer, and releases it in time to engage in the next cylinder notch.

The "fix" is to buy a new hammer and install it. Shouldn't require much if any gunsmithing.
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Old June 16, 2016, 06:40 AM   #11
Malachi Leviticus Blue
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If you haven't already done so, disassemble and conduct a thorough cleaning. Look especially for jammed cap fragments. Those bits of caps floating around in the works can cause all kinds of havoc that can act like actual parts problems.
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Old June 18, 2016, 06:03 PM   #12
Glen
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Thanks Again

The gun is clean as a whistle, inside and out. I will proceed with the suggestions and I am sure I will be shooting it again at some point.

Thanks,

Glen
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Old June 19, 2016, 12:51 AM   #13
BCRider
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If it's already clean inside and still doing this and during your cleaning you didn't find anything obvious like parts floating around not attached then I'd go with the suggestion to send it to a smith. Your own admission that you're not good at such things says that it's time to pay the piper to get the gun fixed.

Send it in with the requirement that if the cost of repair is going to be more than the gun is worth then to simply send it back and make it a wall hanger. The Pietta black powder guns seem to come up for sale at really great prices at Cabela's often enough.

Now Goon can not only fix the gun but tune it so you'll die of delight at how it operates and shoots when you get it back. If that sounds like something worth doing then expect to pay more for a combination of repair and tuning. But you'll have something very nice for the money. It all comes down to how much you like cap and ball and if it's worth it to you to get the tuning done.
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Old June 19, 2016, 01:04 AM   #14
Jim K
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I still two words might point to the problem: "...brass framed ... worked ... for years..."

Jim
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Old June 19, 2016, 07:51 AM   #15
45 Dragoon
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Thanks for the mentions guys!!
Usually, if there's nothing broken or worn out, "getting them right" is all that's needed to restore a looooooong life to a shooter. Most of my customers send me either new guns or those "would be favorites" that haven't been shot much. There's a lot of wear area on parts and very rarely do I need to replace a part.

Unpredictable bolt dropping sounds like a cam issue or bolt arm issue (combination of) that may change depending on the side pressure on the hammer as it's cocked. Hopefully, the cam is worn away (fairly common with the Italians ) and not the bolt arm so much. That's an easier fix and saves a bolt. A new cam (oversized if needed) can restore new life to a bolt as long as the arm has enough "meat" on it. The bolt arm should fall straight off the front of the cam, never the side. Anyway, all you fathers, have a great day with your kids!! I'm going to a high end car show (its a monthly show here) and see some more Italian metal!! (Lotta German too!!)


Mike
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Old June 21, 2016, 05:06 PM   #16
Glen
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OK Finally Figgered It Out

Well, even more info given to me now. Even got a comment from the gunsmith "Goon" guy himself. Sweet. So yeah, I think since I have gotten years use out of the Pietta, since it is brass framed, since I only paid $99.00 for it in the first place, and since I have a nice Uberti 1858 with the front site filed down and on perfectly at 25 yards--I am just going to turn the Pietta into a wall hanger and start shooting the Uberti.

I may use you in the future though, Mike/45 Dragoon. It's sure good to know you exist.

Thanks again for helping me get my head straight on this, everyone. I appreciate all you guys and I love this site! OK, enough mush...it's time to plan where I want to go camping and shooting. Yahoo!

--Glen
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Old June 21, 2016, 07:35 PM   #17
45 Dragoon
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Thanks Glen, more than happy to help if I can.

Mike
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Old June 22, 2016, 06:07 PM   #18
rcflint
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I haven't seen an Italian bolt wing break yet, they don't seem to be tempered... Pry it out a bit and see what happens. (Not too much, as it can push and tilt the hammer enough to cause the hammer to drag on the frame.)

A real Colt bolt is hard enough to break if pried...
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Old June 22, 2016, 06:26 PM   #19
denster
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Both Italian and Colt bolt legs are spring tempered. If they were not they would not work at all. Sometimes the Italians draw the temper a bit too far for long spring life. These can be annealed and then bent straight then hardened and re-tempered correctly and they work just fine. The vast majority of the time though the Italian parts are just fine from the get go.
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Old June 22, 2016, 09:42 PM   #20
45 Dragoon
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I find the Uberti bolts to be very nice parts. The left arm is thin (as it should be) and the quality of the bolts seems to be good and consistent.
Piettas bolts are chunky, the arms are thick and the quality seems to be that of the 1970s.

The biggest problem I see is that the arms (of both companies bolts) aren't fitted and almost always long ( late drop). This causes them to slide off the side of the cam because the taper of the cam (as the hammer rotates back) is too thin to support the very over sprung bolt. If the arm were shorter, it would fall off the front of the cam (as it should) and not wear a "trough" into the cam. The extra length of the arm pushes it to the side and that is how the "trough" gets started. As the wear continues, the drop will get sooner but the cam gets destroyed (sometimes rather quickly). The other condition is a soft arm that allows the cam to whittle away material and allow a progression of earlier drop and ultimately failure.
During both of these events, the early drop and heavy spring tension do a number on the side of the lock notch and as it fails, digs a gouge around the cylinder.

I set my bolts up to stay next to the intersection of the cam/ hammer and fall off the front at exactly the correct time (a bolts width in front of the notch) powered by a 3-4 lb. spring tension rather than the usual 7-8 lb. tension.


Mike
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Old June 22, 2016, 10:46 PM   #21
44 Dave
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Like Mike says about fitting the bolt and let him do it for you. I had to replace a Pietta bolt but ordered both Pietta and Uberti plus other parts. The bolts were no where near "drop in" parts and I ended up using the the Uberti because it was of better quality.
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