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Old January 29, 2016, 08:00 PM   #1
roddrick
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Derringer

Good afternoon. I’m a newbe to BP shooting and just purchased a Philadelphia type derringer from what I can find on it it’s a 41 cal cap and ball. My question is does anyone have any idea who made it (see attached pictures) and what load should I use in it. Currently using Hodgondon triple 7 fffg for my Pietta 1858.
Thanks for any help on this.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1 D.jpg (142.2 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg 2 D.jpg (141.5 KB, 77 views)
File Type: jpg 3 D.jpg (156.2 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg 4 D.jpg (156.8 KB, 114 views)
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Old January 29, 2016, 08:05 PM   #2
dagger dog
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Very nice little pistol looks very well made. Some others that know more than I frequent this forum and will be along soon to help you out. The fffg for your Pietta should work fine.

Welcome to the forum !

Last edited by dagger dog; January 29, 2016 at 08:38 PM.
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Old January 29, 2016, 08:34 PM   #3
roddrick
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Thanks for the welcome Dagger dog. Yes it is a very well made little gun even the screw heads are engraved like the rest of it not laser etched.
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Old January 29, 2016, 08:54 PM   #4
Crawdad1
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Proof and maker's marks are probably under the barrel. I had a CVA Philadelphia Derringer kit and the marks were under the barrel.

Nice pistol. Good find!!!
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Old January 29, 2016, 11:52 PM   #5
D. Buck Stopshere
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It looks Spanish to me. CVA imported a similar design from Jukar in Spain. If you can remove the barrel, Jukar may be stamped on one of the flats along with Spanish proofs.
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Old January 30, 2016, 01:16 AM   #6
roddrick
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It was a good find, I picked it up at a “flea market” for $40 along with a Remington style brass powder flask. I have taken this gun all apart and the only markings I can find are the number 38 stamped under the barrel piece and again on the inside of the side plate, There is a small “m” inside of a shield on the top of the barrel on the side opposite of the hammer stamped CAL 41 and a serial number. Other than that I can find no other manufactures markings. Underneath the barrel shows it's cast not machined. I don’t know how old this piece is but the inside area where it’s been opened up for the “workings” doesn’t show modern smooth cutting also the hammer spring looks crude but with good snap.
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Old January 30, 2016, 04:32 AM   #7
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Looks to me like you got a steal on it. It should be fun to shoot, just don't expect great accuracy out of it for any distance. In my experience they aren't much for accuracy beyond about 7 yds....but that close range stuff is what they were originally used for anyway.
It does seem to have a spanish look to me..but the embellishment has me stumped. I can't imagine having that much fancy work done on a cheaper kit gun or such, but to each his own. The barrel embellishment looks to be cast into the barrel as far as I can see in the pic's.....and to fancy one up like that usually is accompanied by a great piece of wood...which they didn't do there.
Overall, very interesting and you should have fun with it.
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Old January 30, 2016, 12:24 PM   #8
roddrick
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You're right stony all the embellishment is cast into it and the brass pieces are flush mounted too but I think it's just pine. Anyway any suggestions on a load I was thinking around 8 to 12 grains of FFFG maybe?? I've never played with a muzzle loader so do I use a 41cal ball with a patch or a slightly smaller ball with a patch?
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Old January 30, 2016, 12:36 PM   #9
Crawdad1
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A smaller caliber ball with a patch.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/1

Just look down the list you have plenty of options.
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Old January 30, 2016, 12:50 PM   #10
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That is nice and $40.00 is a steal. I built one from a kit but it doesn't look as nice as that one.
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Old January 30, 2016, 01:00 PM   #11
4v50 Gary
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What Joem1945 said. It's a steal. Well done and who says deflation is bad?
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Old January 30, 2016, 02:00 PM   #12
roddrick
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Thanks cradad1 I checked out that link and I see .380, .389, .395 and .400 sizes. I'm guessing a cloth patch is around .010 to .015 thickness and a 41cal is .410? So that means I should use a .380 to .389? I'm going to mike the bore (it's smooth) to see what I have for tolerances there. Like I said I've never played with muzzle loaders before and have a real respect for the power of BP. So any help from those you who have experience is a huge help.
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Old January 30, 2016, 03:22 PM   #13
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Nice looking little gun there.

Is that the letter M in a shield on the top flat? Must be a proof mark.

Someone around is bound to know from where.

We really should do a sticky on proofs from various countries and time periods.

I would have held The Boy down and taken his emergency school lunch money to come up with $40 cash for that!

-kBob
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Old January 30, 2016, 03:25 PM   #14
Mike OTDP
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Mike the bore. I'd suggest about a .395 ball, but you've got flexibility. Ball diameter plus one patch thickness should equal bore diameter. Charge should be 8-12 grains 3f.
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Old January 30, 2016, 07:24 PM   #15
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I shoot 15gr of hodgens 777 out of my .36 double barrel derringer. Its pops off pretty good but does fine. I'm pretty sure urs would do fine if u start low and work ur way up. It will get to hard to hold before u overload it from my understanding. I'm new to BP to tho, just what I've heard
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Old January 30, 2016, 09:27 PM   #16
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http://www.powderhombre.com/mbpproofmarks.pdf
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Old January 31, 2016, 03:11 AM   #17
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I'm not real big on BP but I gotta admit, that's a very cool looking lil' pistol! For $40, I'd have jumped on it too.
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Old January 31, 2016, 06:00 AM   #18
Stony
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I think I would start with a 395 ball as they are pretty easy to find around as quite a few guys shoot the .40's with them. You can vary your patch quite a lot of adjust tightness in the bore. Being a smoothbore, you will find it easy to load and shoot. If you make up a measure from an old cartridge, it's easy to stay pretty consistent with your loads. I would probably start with 3f and maybe an old 45acp case and you should be good to go. As you fire it, you will undoubtedly want to load a little more and try it. Looks like a lot of fun to me, just don't expect to hit small targets with it. You can even load up some shot and have some fun with a smoothbore.
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Old January 31, 2016, 07:31 AM   #19
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Well I did some searching and darned if I can find that proof mark. Also looked as a couple of google pages worth og little Philly Deringers without finding one that had that sort of engraving.

Other interesting characteristic I noted was that the barrel on rob's seems to be held on with a wedge rather than a simple round pin. I think Dixie imported such along with a host of pin held models.

I re read and could not find a reference in this thread other than the post above about it being smooth bore. Most Pillys I have seen were rifled as were the originals. I wonder if this is smooth bored if this might not be non firing replica?

I would certainly "Stump" the gun for a few shots, that is tie it down and shoot it from a safe place with a long string......just as the old Dixie Catalogs encouraged folks to do with unknown BP rifles. When I was younger , the Army taught me to "cook off" hand grenades, that is pull the pin, release the lever so the internal fuze lights, give it a second then throw. I try to avoid that sort of thing these days.

-kBob
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Old January 31, 2016, 12:03 PM   #20
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HTML Code:
[SIZE="4"]When I was younger , the Army taught me to "cook off" hand grenades, that is pull the pin, release the lever so the internal fuze lights, give it a second then throw. I try to avoid that sort of thing these days[/SIZE]
.

As if just pulling the pin wasn't dangerous enough. what was the life expectancy of the DI. The recruit only had to do it once
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Old January 31, 2016, 12:17 PM   #21
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As KBob said, I also think it might be a non firing gun.
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Old January 31, 2016, 12:20 PM   #22
Kaeto
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I had a kit that was just like this one. It was from DGW and it was a firing one. It had the wedge to hold the barrel as well and a cast barrel.
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Old January 31, 2016, 12:33 PM   #23
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Excellent Keato! There it is. I might still stump it though.

By the way I just sailed beyond the sunset with Laz Long's mother for the third or forth time last week. Easy to see where he got it from.

Think I may introduce my son or daughter to Ms. Lummox this week.

-kBob
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Old January 31, 2016, 02:47 PM   #24
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Introduce them to Juan Rico of the Mobile Infantry too. I have a copy of that one signed by the master himself.
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Old January 31, 2016, 07:58 PM   #25
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Introduce them to Juan Rico of the Mobile Infantry too. I have a copy of that one signed by the master himself.
#starshiptroopers #bobbyheinlein
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