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Old April 24, 2009, 10:33 PM   #1251
mykeal
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Quote:
Fuff and gentleman, thanks for answering some of my questions
No, actually just the opposite. He called everyone else gentlemen, and excluded Old Fuff from the term.

Which is even worse.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:36 AM   #1252
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I think that The Old Gent is out to wring my tail....

But anyway I have an answer to one of the mysteries.

Concerning the 300 Walker revolvers that Mike said the Army returned to Colt for repairs… Here’s the straight story (I think).

In late 1847 Colt agreed to supply Uncle Sam’s Army with 300 revolvers to replace what they claimed were defective or unserviceable Walkers. Keep in mind that would represent 30% of the total, an astounding number.

These 300 guns are known as Fluck Pre-1st. Model Dragoons. They are named after a prominent Colt collector, John J. Fluck, who discovered the variant and researched its background.

These revolvers were Dragoons (short 2 3/16” cylinder), not Walkers (long 2 7/16” cylinder) but they incorporated a lot of Walker parts, some of which might, or might not have been salvaged from earlier Walkers. The backstraps and trigger guards were Walker, but the trigger guard was modified so that the top/front of the stocks could be squared, not rounded in the Walker fashion. The frames were Dragoon style, as were the cylinders (finished in the white by the way). At least some of the barrels were Walker pattern, but shortened to 7 ˝ inches and machined at the back identically the same as Dragoon barrels so they’d match the short cylinder. The bullet rammer handle had a latch at the front – another Dragoon improvement. In short, they looked like a 1st Model Dragoon, and for all practical purposes that's what they were.

They were serial numbered within the 2,216 to 2,515 block, which was well above the Walker range running in series from 1 to 1000.

Given that they had new frames and cylinders, with (possibly) reworked barrels they are considered to be replacement Dragoons, not repaired Walkers. They were delivered to the Army as part of a 1000-gun shipment of 1st. Model Dragoons during late 1847.

Who says history isn’t interesting?
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Old April 25, 2009, 07:04 AM   #1253
Clermont
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Were Original Walker Muzzles In The White.

The muzzle flat on my Colt Signature Series Walker is in the white. Is any

information available indicating whether original Walker muzzles were left in

the white, not withstanding the cylinders? As an afterthought, do any of the

replica manufacturers produce their Walkers with in the white muzzles or,

unlike the Colt replica, are all muzzles blued?
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Old April 25, 2009, 07:08 AM   #1254
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What's a 'muzzle flat'?
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Old April 25, 2009, 07:30 AM   #1255
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For lack of a better word, I was trying to describe the end of the barrel where the bullet exits the bore.
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Old April 25, 2009, 08:12 AM   #1256
madcratebuilder
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Quote:
Were Original Walker Muzzles In The White.
The muzzle flat on my Colt Signature Series Walker is in the white. Is any

information available indicating whether original Walker muzzles were left in

the white, not withstanding the cylinders? As an afterthought, do any of the

replica manufacturers produce their Walkers with in the white muzzles or,

unlike the Colt replica, are all muzzles blued?
My 2nd gen Walker muzzle is blue and a 90* flat surface, my 3rd gen 2nd Dragoon is raw and crowned. My 3rd gen 3rd Dragoon is blue and flat.
2nd gen 51 & 61 are both raw.

I could be that after the blue process some guns may have needed the crowns attended to.
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Old April 25, 2009, 10:02 AM   #1257
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Knowning the finite details of how the original Walkers were finished presents some problems. First of all, only 1,100 were made. 1,000 were sold to the Army, and the final 100 were distributed to dignitaries or sold on the open market.

A substantial number were lost, “liberated” or destroyed during the Mexican War. The ones that survived saw a lot of frontier service where they were “rode hard and put away wet.” So now its 2009, and what few Walkers are still left to us are mostly devoid of any finish. Those that do and are in known collections can be counted on the fingers of one hand. I have handled one of them, but I’ll be darned if I looked to see how the muzzle was finished. For that matter we have no way to be sure they were all finished the same way. Sometimes you have to live with knowledge that you’ll never know for sure.
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Old April 25, 2009, 11:04 AM   #1258
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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This is starting to get a little interesting. Surely all or most of the 300 that went back (or they attempted to send back) was not because of burst cylinders. I'vd got a 1st Model Dragoon put away here. Bought it way over a year ago, shot it 6 times after I got back up here, and cleaned it and greased it down. Figure I wasted my money. Nothing wrong with the 1st Model, but I already own it's daddy and there ain't anything wrong with it either, and I don't have any need for a 1st Model.
This blackpowder site is real good for old codger's like me. I'vd about got to where I don't go anywhere else on a computer for any reason.
Thank all of you for being here and thank all of you for the hard work you do researching and keeping up with all this stuff so lazy people like me can reap the benefits from it....

Last edited by GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL; April 25, 2009 at 10:24 PM.
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Old April 25, 2009, 11:08 AM   #1259
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In short, they looked like a 1st Model Dragoon, and for all practical purposes that's what they were.
Wouldn't it more (pedantic, to be certain) accurate to say they were essentially Whitneyville Dragoons? They had the Walker gripframe, correct?

Quote:
the final 100 were distributed to dignitaries or sold on the open market.
Since they weren't .mil models, is it known if they had silvered TGs, like Colt did later?
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Old April 25, 2009, 11:34 AM   #1260
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Well......looks like My Keal is trying to stir the merde pot I was thanking Old Fuff outright as he answered my questions fully and was thanking all the rest of you gentlemen as well for adding info etc. So no I wasn't leaving Fuff out of the gentleman category so settle some. Now I am accepting of this behavior out of Genlteman of the Charcoal ( ) but the rest of you guys...... well?? No, on a more serious note. I may sound stupid but I have heard of four versions by Uberti. The Whitneyville Dragoon, the 1st model, 2nd model and 3rd model Dragoons. Now Old Fuff, with what your calling Fluck Dragoons are these like what they are calling Whitneyville Dragoons? I realize I am comparing apples and oranges here. But I was under the impression that Whitneyville Dragoons were a variant of Walker and Dragoon parts am I correct?I am not as well read as some of you when it comes to the Walkers and Dragoon so please bear with me. But didn't the original 1st model Dragoon have a different grip frame and grip than the Walker while these Fluck Dragoons had the barrel and cylinder of what would be the eventual 1st model Dragoon with the Walker grip and grip frame?
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Old April 25, 2009, 11:36 AM   #1261
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My apologies Admiral B......I didn't read down to your post yet. And as GotC asked were all 300 of the Walkers returned due to bad cylinders? Or just troubled Walkers that eventually got the "Dragoon" facelift?
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Old April 25, 2009, 11:48 AM   #1262
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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Noble Sniper, thank you deeply for your consideration and understanding! You are positively a most splendid gentleman!!
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:04 PM   #1263
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Wouldn't it more (pedantic, to be certain) accurate to say they were essentially Whitneyville Dragoons? They had the Walker gripframe, correct?
No, in the sense that the trigger guard was altered and matched to a Dragoon frame. As a consequence the stocks were square-shape at the top. so-called Whitneyville Dragoons had the Walker-style stocks that were rounded at the top and slightly extended into the frame.

Quote:
Since they weren't .mil models, is it known if they had silvered TGs, like Colt did later?
No, all 1,100 Walkers had plain, unplated trigger guards and backstraps. The so-called Whitneyville Dragoons were made by Colt in Hartford CT. They had Walker-style iron backstraps and brass trigger guards. The trigger guards were a mix of plain or silver plated. Early backstraps seem to have been tinned (tin plated) but soon changed to silver on commercial revolvers. those bought by the Army continued to have blued backstraps.

Keep in mind that during 1847 and '48 things were moving very quickly. The only revolvers made at Whitneyville were the 1,100 Walkers. They were followed by approximately 240 Whitneyville-Hartford Dragoons mentioned above, and 300 Fluck Dragoons. By then the 1st Model Dragoon was in production and Colt was off and running.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:09 PM   #1264
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Now I'm really confused.

Quote:
No, all 1,100 Walkers had plain, unplated trigger guards and backstraps.
I thought all the Walkers had iron/steel backstraps?

Quote:
Early backstraps seem to have been tinned (tin plated) but soon changed to silver on commercial revolvers. those bought by the Army continued to have blued backstraps.
Brass or iron backstraps? Are there Dragoons (1st model onwards) with iron backstraps? Only reason I ask is that all the replicas have brass, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:47 PM   #1265
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SO may I ask? What exactly is the Whitneyville Dragoon that Uberti selss? Is it based off of a true Colt dragoon or just something trumped up for marketing?
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:52 PM   #1266
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Quote:
I thought all the Walkers had iron/steel backstraps?
They did, and I could have put that better. The backstraps were iron, and blued. The trigger guards were polished brass, and otherwise unfinished.

Quote:
Brass or iron backstraps? Are there Dragoons (1st model onwards) with iron backstraps? Only reason I ask is that all the replicas have brass, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Once the left-over Walker parts were disposed of (and there wasn't much) Colt settled down and made his Dragoon revolvers (1st through 3 models, although he didn't identify them as such) with brass backstraps and triggers guards. An exception to the rule were those limited numbers of 3rd models that were set up to take a shoulder stock. Those usually if not always had iron backstraps.

Military guns had polished brass parts that wasn't otherwise finished. The few that had iron backstraps were blued. Commercial revolvers were usually made with silver plated/brass, although a handfull were tin plated (apparently the entire gun) for corrosion resistance. Tin was soon replaced with nickel. The walnut stocks on military guns were oil finished. Commercial revolvers usually had highly polished varnished stocks.
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Old April 25, 2009, 12:53 PM   #1267
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Do any of the origanal "saddle holsters" exist for the Walker? Was wondering what they looked like. Sorry to keep asking questions......... but I figure this is the only place where I am gonna find the answers
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Old April 25, 2009, 01:19 PM   #1268
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SO may I ask? What exactly is the Whitneyville Dragoon that Uberti selss? Is it based off of a true Colt dragoon or just something trumped up for marketing?
Darned if I know, I'll have to go look...

I suspect that they took a basic Walker, and matched it to a 1st model Dragoon cylinder and barrel (including the bullet rammer). In my book that would be acceptably close to what Colt did.

Understand that the "Whitneyville part of the name is misleading. All of the so-called Whitneyville Dragoons were actually made at Colt's new factory in Hartford CT. But he used up some Walker parts (apparently including frames) that were left over, matched with 1st model Dragoon parts for the rest. The total number of such revolvers was only around 240 guns.
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Old April 25, 2009, 01:26 PM   #1269
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Walker nipple wrench

I have just this year returned to BP shooting and I have purchased a Uberti Char. Blue Walker. I am thinking of buying a Walker nipple wrench but I am unsure of why the wrench has a U-shape design. I am thinking it can be placed over the hammer V-spring during disassembly to hold it down. Is this correct and are they really necessary? I have taken it apart for inspection before I shoot it and the V-spring is a handful to get back on. Any information to make this easier will be appreciated. Thanks.
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Old April 25, 2009, 01:38 PM   #1270
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Do any of the origanal "saddle holsters" exist for the Walker?
Yes they do, but since I have so much trouble posting pictures I may have to send one to you as an e-mail attachment.
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Old April 25, 2009, 01:43 PM   #1271
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Old Fuff, send it to my email below and I will post it Thanks, Craig

craig_houchins@hotmail.com
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Old April 25, 2009, 01:45 PM   #1272
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Old Fuff, send it to my email below and I will post it Thanks, Craig
Now there is a good idea...
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Old April 25, 2009, 02:06 PM   #1273
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tripe1917, interesting idea about the nipple wrench doubling as a spring stop. I use leather wrapped vise grips and keep the spring compressed after attaching it to the frame. Then slide the receiver in place and screw the two parts together before releasing the spring (slowly).
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Old April 25, 2009, 02:26 PM   #1274
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Sent you a email Old Fuff........figured that would make it easier Thanks
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Old April 25, 2009, 04:17 PM   #1275
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I am thinking it can be placed over the hammer V-spring during disassembly to hold it down.
Correct, that's what the design intends. I don't have any problem removing/installing the spring with my hands, though.
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