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Old February 11, 2010, 01:13 AM   #226
walteray
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The old lady bought me a Moss 500 with the breacher barrel on it for chirstmas. Its the first tactical shotgun Ive ever owned but I love the mossberg name, grew up the ulti-mag hunting ducks geese and everything in the field and 20 guage for turkeys I love this new gun. My shooting buddys and I shoot trap with it at the rock quarrys it started out as a joke and turned into competion/practice, Its hard with a pistol grip but you learn to handle the gun really quick...
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Old February 21, 2010, 04:58 AM   #227
kiwihunta
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I love my little Baikal SXS coach gun,exposed hammers and 18" barrels with screw out chokes (the screw out chokes are pretty unusual as fixed cyl barrels are the norm),handles beautifully and with the tighter chokes patterns suprisingly well at distance.
My other main shotgun is a Remington 870 in a choate pistol grip stock,these were ex Shelby county sheriffs dept that ended up being sold in our neck of the woods,the 870s speak for themselves ....outstanding,cheers.
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Old February 22, 2010, 01:48 PM   #228
Capstick1
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The only bad thing about the double barrelled shotguns is reloads. If you have a bunch of flesh eating zombies chasing after you all you have is two shots. You may not have enough time to put more ammo in the chambers.
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Old February 22, 2010, 02:33 PM   #229
chieftain
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Quote:
The only bad thing about the double barrelled shotguns is reloads. If you have a bunch of flesh eating zombies chasing after you all you have is two shots. You may not have enough time to put more ammo in the chambers.
Yup, I ain't ever seen a double barrel not be able to fire at least one barrel, unlike some pumps I have used in the past.

If I should "run that double barrel hammer gun dry", I will swing it or just drop it and go to carbine or pistol, depending on the tactical situation. Don't forget we are talking HOME DEFENSE here. I will not be mobil in this situation. The Cavalry doesn't take long to get to my house either.

The fight will take place on and in the Killing ground of my choosing. And right next to that double hammer gun is a loaded FN SCAR with all the Tacti-kool goodies and an additional couple of magazines. This along, with at least one, most often two, handguns as a secondary battery (with additional magazines).

In truly close quarters, you will often find that the baseball bat concept is much more effective, with REAL "stopping power", than almost any firearm. I have used a M14 as a baseball bat several times. The little fellows I hit with those vertical and horizontal butt strokes, sure "stopped right now". Where I learned to fight, we called that "stopping power".

I have seen NVA crawling over wounded and dead comrades trying to get to our positions, but when I was working for the Sheriff Dept, I did not see or hear of criminals doing the same thing. Most often if the first guy through the door didn't make it, dead or seriously wounded, the rest of these brave criminals would run like hell.

Of course in your experience you may have seen or heard the criminals crawling/climbing over their dead and wound comrades to get to the home owner, I have not. I am sure it has happened or could happen. I don't believe that breaks the seal of my "probability envelope".

Go figure.

Fred
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Old March 12, 2010, 12:57 AM   #230
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I like the K.I.S.S. principal and feel that any shotgun can be a fighting weapon!

Last edited by forestdavegump; March 12, 2010 at 01:12 AM.
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Old March 23, 2010, 12:07 AM   #231
Bear 45/70
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Kiwihunta, You are aware that they make barrel inserts for that shotgun. I had a set of 45/70 inserts for mine. You can still get them thru Remington. Also you might want to measure those barrels to confirm their length.

I sold the Baikal with inserts to a Cowboy Action shooter that had to have the set up that day. I replaced it with a Norinco version and just recently picked up a Norinco version of a Winchester 1897 Riot gun. Now there is a fighting shotgun. Just pull the trigger and hold it back and run the pump, it goes bang every time the slide goes forward.
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Old March 27, 2010, 11:44 PM   #232
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On this simplicity thread ...

I have been a long time reader - and finally have decided to ask a question. This appears to be the right thread for it.

I'm in the market for my first defensive shotgun and have selected an 870P. I am a huge believer in KISS. That being said, I am very torn whether to go with the 6+1 shot extension option or not. I believe that is an extra 2 shells from the norm.

I do not want to throw the balance of the gun off, but at the same time I don't want to buy the 4 shot and immediately regret it and end up installing an aftermarket extension. I am 6' tall, 200 lbs and am wondering how much I'll really notice the extra weight of the 2 shells and extension tube? I've never fired one, so I need advice here from those who have. This will be my first gun of this type and I'll be taking it to the range as much as I can to learn with it. I don't plan to add any doo-dads whatsoever, beyond possibly a carrying strap. I just don't want to get the wrong style - considering how much money these things go for in MA.

Also, while on the topic - I'd love any advice on the rifle sight vs. bead issue. I realize the bead is faster, but I want this gun for HD, SHTF, and going to the range - an all purpose long gun. I'm leaning towards the rifle sights because it seems more versatile, whereas bead is more for indoor use only.

Thank you much for any advice and I'm really excited to have joined this community!
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Old March 28, 2010, 07:43 PM   #233
Dave McCracken
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Welcome to our community.

You'll probably be OK with the extension, but there's always a downside to everything, Mondu.

A two shot extension adds about 7 oz to the muzzle end BEFORE you add shells. Those run about 3 oz each. IMO, a two shot extension is close to ideal for those that can handle the weight out there.

I'm 6'2", closer to 300,have long arms, and find the extension helps me with muzzle rise and getting back on a target or targets fast.YMMV, but one can always take off an extension and install a standard spring and mag cap.

A bead is more versatile than open sights. The sights do work well for defense, but the bead works for everything. Most folks,with a modicum of practice, even do OK with slugs out to 50 yards with a plain bead, and nothing, repeat nothing, is faster in moments of crisis.

Open, peep or GR sights are a little more precise. I have peeps on my defensive guns because they double for deer hunting with slugs. However, Frankenstein has just a bead on its main barrel and does sub 3" groups at 50 yards all day long.No extension, and it's poison up close and sudden.

If you can, try out a couple shotguns prior to purchase, see what works for you.

HTH.....
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Old March 29, 2010, 09:19 AM   #234
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Dave,

Thank you very much for your reply. I think that I am going to go with the 870p with the 6+1. Like you said, I can always remove it and put on a cap if its truly a hindrance. Or even just not add those additional two rounds when reloading...

I don't believe that I will get the chance to try out the different sight types before buying, which is a real shame. MA makes it damn near impossible to do anything practical when it comes to firearms. The only people who have them are the criminals and the cops. Everyone else has to jump through nearly infinite hoops. If you suggest that the bead is more versatile for an all-around, all-purpose long gun I will take your advice. I've never shot either and am doing my best to do my "homework" before making a big purchase. All said and done, after the class they make me take, the license fees, the taxes, etc - this will be a $1000 purchase.

I was up in NH this past weekend visiting my family and went to Wal-Mart where they were selling Remington 0-0 Buckshot 2-3/4" shells for $11.74 for 15 rounds. Is this a good price? I'd like to stock up on some 0-0, but also get something more gentle for actual HD (I live in an apt with lots of neighbors so I need something closer to birdshot). I also want to get some rounds for the range to practice with - any suggestions? Anything a little cheaper that won' t damage the barrel? Am I really looking at around $1/round? That's ok if so, I just want to double check. Being armed is an expensive venture - but I consider it a priority.

In other news, my dad is looking at the Mossy 590A1 Mariner for HD aboard a sailboat he's buying. The kook is going to create his own explosive rounds to try to scare off potential attackers from hijacking his boat. I told him he might want to stick with normal - legal - ammunition. But he insists the loud bang is scary and will get rid of pirates. I've seen Pirates of the Caribbean - I know for a fact that they're not scared off by loud noises.

edit:: ps. I forgot to mention I purchased a book recommended earlier in this thread called "Tactical Shotgun: The Best Techniques And Tactics For Employing The Shotgun In Personal Combat" so I hope to learn a lot that way and then find a range to begin practicing with. I have a lot to learn and am a firm believer that practice is more helpful than any cool tactical gear.

Last edited by monduconstruct; March 29, 2010 at 01:08 PM.
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Old March 30, 2010, 06:28 PM   #235
Dave McCracken
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I'm no fan of birdshot for defense. Anything that will stop a thread can penetrate walls. In your shoes, I'd stick to buck, maybe 4 buck, and work on getting it in the right place.

Birdshot can work for practice, though every session should include some "Duty"ammo.

Also, you need to show your Dad this site before he makes a terrible mistake.
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Old April 2, 2010, 11:34 AM   #236
shockwave
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Finished my Mossberg 500 Cruiser build.

Base: Mossberg 500 Cruiser w/pistol grip.

Additions: Outdoor Connection adjustable super sling.

TacStar sidesaddle shotshell carrier.

Jimdo Cree R2 7090 XR-E LED flashlight.

TacStar magazine clamp (light mount)

Vang Comp aluminum safety.

I thought that would do it, but Lapin and McCracken suggested a shoulder stock and after a few sessions at the range I understood why. So today I installed a Butler Creek Protector Folding Shotgun Stock. Got a good deal here.

All you need are a couple of allen wrenches, but you have to disassemble the hinge and re-install it on the gun.


Open:


Folded:


The last thing a goblin sees:


I'll update this later after a range session. My thanks to the High Roaders who helped me work through this project.
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Old April 2, 2010, 06:45 PM   #237
chieftain
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I fundamentally agree with Dave, but use #1 Buck or heavier, per FBI recommendations. The difference at this point is splitting hair's, the bottom line is, do not plan to use bird shot, in the defense.

But, as Robert Ruark's book title stated: "Use Enough Gun"

Ruark applied that to dangerous big game. It also applies when defending yourself against Bad Guys. Generally much more dangerous than anything found in Africa.

In context of our discussion we would be discussing the loads in our shotguns.

Go figure.

Fred
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Old April 25, 2010, 05:03 PM   #238
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I've found the same weight concern/issue once I added a surefire front-end, a knoxx stock and a side-saddle carrier to my already overweight 590A1 20". While it has almost zero recoil shooting buckshot, it feels really slow. Luckily, I've also found that it is more a perceived issue that a practical one; my steel match scores are on par with equally skilled shooters with auto's in there hands.

That said, I'm picking up a "rev2" Mossberg 930 SPX tomorrow with the hopes of replacing my 590A1... I sure hope I get reliable performance out of her! FYI, I paid $750 for it with the pistol grip stock out here in So CA.. ouch! They are very few and far between however, so I wasn't too concerned about paying full list... heck, I didn't even want the pistol grip stock! I'll make sure and post my experiences with her once I clean, lube and shoot a few hundred round down range.
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Old April 25, 2010, 05:11 PM   #239
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Let us know how that 930 works out. Thanks....
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Old April 30, 2010, 06:53 AM   #240
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My Two Cents

What a great thread! I've been sitting here for more than a little while reading and have learned a LOT. I have some experience with combat firefights, but never with a shotgun, and no experience with home break-ins. I'm not particularly concerned about traditional break-ins, but I do worry that the future may contain threats from large groups of displaced and hungry people as states go bankrupt and entitlements like welfare and food supplements disappear. I'm not really worried about the oddball junkie breaking in my door. I'm more worried about the "Magnificent Seven" bandito possibility. This SHTF scenario may never happen but, then again, I have flood insurance too. I never fired a weapon until I joined the Army in 1970 and never owned one of my own until November 2008, long after retirement. Here's my two cents:

I believe in layered defense. With no artillery available, I have weapons chambered in 308 so that I can discourage bad guys from outside the envelope of their own weapons. Failing that, I see shotguns as an essential tool for a closer fight, that offer something of an "area" effect, rather than the precision of a rifle. For a final defense, we have sidearms too. This is all based on the presumption that we'll be out of the city and at our retirement place in the boonies by the time any trouble starts.

With this in mind, my primary shotgun is a Mossberg 930 SPX. With 7+1 capacity, it offers a large amount of firepower. I've seen the positive comments here about double barrel shotguns, but I just don't get it. Whenever I have found myself facing a real and determined enemy, I want all the ready rounds I can get. I'll trade off the weight for the bang. I like the "cylinder bore" feature so I can fire whatever round I want... you never can tell what might or might not be available. Some specific issues:
1.) Tritium or glo-paint sites - I go for the tritium. Its alwaya ready. You don't have to ask the bad guys to wait a minute while you hold your sights under a flashlight.
2.) Lights - There seems to be a consensus against these things here. I have spent two years in Iraq as a civilian and you could always tell the REMF's who lived inside the wire and the folks who lived outside the wire. The folks in the fresh, clean uniforma had lights, lasers, rangefinders, key chains, washing machines, etc., dangling off their weapons. The raccoon-looking folks (from goggles in the dust) had only a CCO (Close Combat Optic) on their weapons. I agree with the folks here that doodads and thingamajiggies just add weight and can be a beacon to make you a target.
3.) Slings - I like those slings that carry ammo. They are easy to detach if you want and become simply a source of ammo. I don't see myself ever being "in the attck" so laying them down next to you in a defensive position is fine. I also spent a long time in the Army and never saw anyone do the TV cop thing with a sling wrapped around your elbow, up your arm and so forth to provide stability for firing. When a firefight turns into a knife fight, its not something you want to be burdened with.
4.) Speed - Someone said speed was essential. I could not agree more. That's why I chose the 930 SPX. A local LEO told me he could put 8 rounds downrange in 2 seconds... as fast as he could pull the trigger. I haven't done that myself with this old trigger finger, but I do my best. Shooting from the hip is obviously less than optimal marksmanship. But sometimes, with a bunch of BG's coming at you, there is no choice. Practice it. I believe a red dot sight makes you faster. Depending on how much money you can spend, a halographic sight may even allow you to shoot accurately without aligning your eyeball to the weapon in the traditional manner, at all.
5.) Mixed Loads - Someone here spent a lot of time describing the mix of 00 buck, #4, slugs, etc. I would suggest that when you're in a firefight, you have no clue what round is where. You're doing good in all the excitement and drowning in adrenaline, to realize that you're pulling on an empty chamber and its time to reload ANYTHING.
6.) Tailoring - Someone had a GREAT post about living in rural, city, and suburban environments and how the differing THREAT should result in differing weapon/ammo configurations. SO TRUE!! (My wife is a proponent of using 00 Buck at all times. "We'll worry about redecorating later.")
7.) Stealth - The "chik-chiK" of chambering a round may scare off a wayward kid breaking into your house, but won't do much against a determined enemy with some buddies in tow. I'll take the semi-auto (that "auto-loader" phrase is so unnecessary) any day. Sound, like light, tells the bad guys where you are.

My backup shotgun is a Mossberg 500. I recently bought one in a "package" which included the 18.5" tactical barrel, a longer hunting one, chokes, and pistol grip as well as a stock. This "3-in-1" (defense, hunting, cruising) combo is a great package. I had intended to buy the "JIC" (Just in Case) package but was sidetracked by the better deal. By the way, if anyone knows where a JIC container can be purchased, please let me know. Mossberg won't sell them separately and I have searched the web. The JIC container would make a wonderful addition to a BUGOUT BAG. It should be noted that the 500 easily accepts a Picatinny Rail, with holes already bored and screws already provided. The 930 SPX comes out of the box with a rail.

One last comment. I totally agree with folks here that say the training is the most important aspect of this subject. One post talked about shooting clays with an 18.5" tactical shotgun. The poster said it may not get great scores but was great practice. That is very useful advice. I would go a little further. Target practice is important, but bad guys move, maneuver, bob, weave, seek cover, and most important of all... SHOOT BACK! Since I don't plan to be in the attack anytime soon, I believe it useful to preplan primary, secondary and alternate firing positions where you live as your own version of bobbing and weaving. Soldiers spend years learning things like how to work together with friendlies (wives?) to provide supporting fire, how to analyze where the bad guys might come from (avenues of approach), what they might hide behind (concealment), what might protect them (cover) and even how to preplan shooting in the dark (aiming stakes that you can place in daylight and bump up against in the dark to place your weapon properly; knowing where your weapon is pointed when you line it up against a doorway and the end of a couch in total darkness is worth a LOT!). Pre-planning where your family members should go in case of a crisis (kids in the bathtub? throw cat in the closet?) can also prevent confusion in the dark and "friendly fire" casualties. This type of "Situational Awareness" is a big deal in the Army these days and is saving lots of lives.

Feedback welcome!
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Old April 30, 2010, 06:19 PM   #241
Dave McCracken
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Thanks for posting this,AA. You've put some thought into it, and more of us need to do that.

I disagree about red dots, but if it works for you.....
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Old May 1, 2010, 07:11 PM   #242
ironvic
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In my weird life, I've been in numerous high stress, live or die situations. When the heart's thumping adrenalin and your vision is tunneling down, you need to stay simple. For me, that's a walnut decked 870 with a bead sight and the only nod to "tactical" is a set of Uncle Mike's swivel sling holders.

That and the trigger is all I want to manage when trouble comes around.
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Old May 1, 2010, 07:33 PM   #243
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Simple just freakin' works.....
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Old May 1, 2010, 08:46 PM   #244
chieftain
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Quote:
Simple just freakin' works.....
BINGO!

Don't even want a sling inside the house.

Just one more thing to get hung up on furniture, over head fans, lighting fixtures, lamps, door knobs, and the ubiquitous stuff etc.... if and when I must move to action.

Keeping it simple is the BEST defense against Murphy and O'Leary.

That is why the basic shot gun with proper training is most often the best single first home defense weapon anyone should acquire. I believe a good hand gun should be second.

Training with the shotgun will pay much larger dividends in a fight much faster, in time training and practicing, than the same time and cost toward any handgun training. Simply put, the ability to make telling hits reliably on target with a shotgun are much easier and effective with much less training than any pistol training, practice can do.

A highly trained handgun man can be trained to get the hits, but he just can not increase the lethality of that rather weakly powered handguns like the 45acp, 40 S&W, 9mm, 38 spl, 380 etc........ He can maximize them with proper bullet selection, place them on target, which in a real fight is no easy task by those with extensive experience and training. But he cannot increase their capability of "stopping" the bad guy. Nothing will.

There is a reason all professional fighting men, when they think a fight is imminent, chose long arms. Handguns are for secondary and backup work ONLY, when there is any choice at all. Handguns are a weapon of convenience, ONLY.

Go figure.

Fred
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Old May 15, 2010, 05:17 AM   #245
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all you get with a benelli is a name the joint force shot gun sucks to fire but is simple to fix i like my mossberg but like reminhton 870's too the marines still got them

Ohhrahhh
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Old May 21, 2010, 03:35 AM   #246
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This has been an awesome thread to read, thanks to all the folks with actual fighting experience for all the great info. Here's my question- anything different to consider when "home" isn't drywall and knicknacks, but forest/mountains that changes every night? I've recently decided to switch from a handgun to a shotgun for my backcountry defense gun, I cover a lot of ground on foot, and I also take small groups out for different kinds of outdoor training and fun adventures. I just picked up a 500 that I'll be setting up to pack around. I'll be shortening the synthetic stock a bit to fit me, and mounting a shorter barrel. I thought maybe some of the military folks might have some tricks for making it lighter, without sacrificing anything essential. Also, is anyone aware of some kind of backpack rig that allows for getting my weapon from my back into my hands quick and smooth? I'm sure I could fabricate something, but I'd rather not invent the wheel.
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Old May 21, 2010, 04:50 AM   #247
chieftain
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Mossytrigger.

First you must tell us the mission(s) for your weapon. Without that any advice is just blowing in the wind.

Hunting, signaling, grins and giggles, competition, defense, if defense against anything other than Bad guys? etc....... The general question "what do you think" will give you a different answer from almost everyone, based on their own experience, needs, wants, imaginations and often ignorance.

My solutions probably would not be your solutions and vica versa.

State your "have to haves", and "like to haves". Prioritize appropriately for yourself, any physical restrictions etc.... and that should narrow you down to a couple hundred suggestions.

There are back packs available that will carry a shotgun/rifle, and have them fairly handy to draw from. Otherwise use a sling. Like I said, it all depends on your own mission and such.

Have fun and good luck.

Fred
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Old May 21, 2010, 04:19 PM   #248
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The mission is defense against wild dogs, mountain lions, the occasional bad guy(s), the possible predatory bear. I need reliability and stopping power on thin skinned animals most of all, which is why went with a mossberg in 12 gauge. Next in importance are durability, ease of operation to someone who's not me, and relatively light weight, in that order of preference. Right now on my backpack my machete rides upside down with the edge back, along the right side of my pack. I just reach back a little from where my right hand naturally hangs, flick a snap and it's in my hand- a motion I've done a gazillion times, and something I'd like to replicate in getting my shotgun to shoulder when I need it. I need to keep my hands free and stay pretty agile most of the day, so I don't think a sling really works for me. I'm sure there are things I'm not considering, which is why I'm tapping this resource for information. It would be stupid of me not to.
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Old May 21, 2010, 10:01 PM   #249
chieftain
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Frankly I would recommend a 30-30 lever action.

I personally got one of Marlin's new 16" barreled carbines (Sort of like a stainless version of the old Marauder model.) when they came out a couple of years or so ago. It is a dream to shoot when set up with XS rail/ghost rings. Light and of course the ole 30-30 has been doing the do for over 100 years. It is well proven on all the potential targets you are suggesting, IMNSHO I would prefer it over the shotgun for your mission.

Lighter, less recoil, more accurate, and generally quicker to draw from the scabbard. Most folks will handle it "better" than a pump shotgun in the field too. Ammunition is much lighter per round, with many selections available.

Personally I would have seriously considered going with my Marlin 357mag carbine with it's 16" barrel. We are talking 5 lb's, a beauty to shoot. For most of your requirements 38spl would work just fine, and is frankly "fun" to shoot. It is marginal for black bear, with 180gr solid loads, like some from Buffalo Bore. Some folks may consider it to light. I feel competent enough with the heavy loads that except in defense against grizzly bears I really don't have a problem if I should need it.

Just my recommendation. Any of the quality light 20ga pumps would do it too, and both ammo and gun would be lighter than the 12 ga. Of course barrel length is restricted with out a stamp to 18+ in any shotgun too.

A light leather or nylon scabbard lashed to your pack, would probably work with either a shotgun or rifle, accomplish what you seem to need. And many packs come with built in scabbards or straps and a muzzle "pocket" to set your rifle/shotgun.

No really "wrong" answer here. Either way or what ever you decide, good luck.

Fred
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“To lead untrained men in to war, is to waste them.” - Confucious
"Training errors are recorded on paper, tactical errors are etched in stone." - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” - Ayn Rand
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Old May 21, 2010, 10:49 PM   #250
mossytrigger
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Join Date: May 21, 2010
Location: the woods, near a big lake
Posts: 17
Lol, thanks Chieftain- it's funny, I came to the same conclusion about an hour ago. As I'm looking at my pack and the shotgun and imagining how I'll want to carry it, I keep looking over at my quick little .30-30 in the corner and thinking how fast and accurate I am with it, and it's lighter, and kicks way less (a consideration if someone besides me has to pick it up). Looks like the old Marlin will finally get to see what things look like above the treeline. Still, I'm glad to have a short pumpgun now- better to have it and not need it...
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