On Fighting Shotguns.... - Page 12

DRZinn · May 16, 2011, 01:59 PM

Your screed against all accessories makes exactly as much sense as the people who over-accessorize. And is less polite.

I have a 12-gauge with a pistol grip, a flashlight, and a red-dot sight. Am I stupid? Please tell me why, since apparently I fail to understand why I don't need any of those things.

CanadianFreedom · May 16, 2011, 02:21 PM

Oh yes...I forgot! FYI....a 20 gauge shell in standard buck load has the ballistic impact of two .357 magnums...talk about a double tap through one tap...know anyone who is going to just "wade through" that kind of welcome?

I don't even use buck in my Mossie. bird only. I don't want to go to jail for the rest of my life...and anyone who thinks bird is anything but a solid stream of lead at 20-25 feet (still a relatively long distance in a home invasion scenario) is dreaming in technicolour...it is more than enough to put anyone down, on the spot. Enough for the job...unless, of course, my home is being invaded by Delta Force or JTF2...

And again, I invite anyone to field test the effectiveness of a 20 gauge with appropriate birdshot at 20-25 feet. Any volunteers? Unfortunately, I highly doubt you would be able to write a followup review...

mljdeckard · May 16, 2011, 02:25 PM

You speak opinion as if it were fact.

And we don't try to see whose is bigger on this forum.

**Sam1911** · May 16, 2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanadianFreedom

come to my place, and stand 30 feet away (much longer than typical home defense scenarios) and contemplate your life evaporating while you listen to me work the slide of my 20, and point it at your sternum.

...

And again, I invite anyone to field test the effectiveness of a 20 gauge with appropriate birdshot at 20-25 feet. Any volunteers? Unfortunately, I highly doubt you would be able to write a followup review...

Please refrain from using the old "well I wouldn't want to be shot by one" argument. It really does nothing to inform the debate or sustain others' belief in your own objectivitiy.

CanadianFreedom · May 16, 2011, 02:31 PM

Zinn:

Can I ask you a question? Why do you feel you need a 12 gauge?

Pistol grips on shorguns are considered by most to hamper accuracy, not enhance it. Of course, I understand it's all about works for the individual...but sometimes I believe people just don't give stock guns their chance. Just practice with a stock shottie...to me, a pistol grip is completely unnecessary...

If you become disabled in a home invasion...can your 12 year old daughter shoot the 12 gauge? A 20 gauge can be shot by almost all members of your family...and isn't that important?

As for a light...I understand..........you want to see what's up, and who it is, before you shoot. I appreciate that sensibility...but it has one major drawback. You just advertised your exact location to a BG...who might just start shooting at the light, and therefore at you.

IF my home gets invaded - heaven forbid for any of us - we have a safe room...thats where we all go. Steel door, reinforced yadda yadda...cell phones etc...my wife calls 911, and we all hunker down and wait...me, my son, and my little girl have 20 gauges...this ain't the movies...it's real....why would I wander around the house if BGs are there? NFW, man. we retreat to our safe place, close the door, and work the slides...

mljdeckard · May 16, 2011, 02:33 PM

What if he's between you and the safe room? (And you talk about unnecessary frills on a shotgun.)

**Sam1911** · May 16, 2011, 02:48 PM

Not Zinn, but I'll take a shot:

Quote:

Why do you feel you need a 12 gauge?

Why not? Someone can die from a .22 bullet. Someone may not fall down when struck by a load of 00 Buck. Lots of variety in between and we don't get to specify what kind of gun fight we want to have.

Personally, I'd bet on a 20 ga being just dandy for home defense. But, if the reasons to choose one over a 12 don't apply to me, why not toss another few shot?

Quote:

Pistol grips on shorguns are considered by most to hamper accuracy, not enhance it. Of course, I understand it's all about works for the individual...but sometimes I believe people just don't give stock guns their chance. Just practice with a stock shottie...to me, a pistol grip is completely unnecessary...

No argument there. You'll find that you don't need to argue all that forcefully on that point 'round here. Your opinion is shared by many.

Quote:

If you become disabled in a home invasion...can your 12 year old daughter shoot the 12 gauge? A 20 gauge can be shot by almost all members of your family...and isn't that important?

Everyone's family is different. That may be important to some and not to others. Some 12 ga. guns are lighter recoiling with the same ammo than are some 20 ga. guns.

Quote:

As for a light...I understand..........you want to see what's up, and who it is, before you shoot. I appreciate that sensibility...but it has one major drawback. You just advertised your exact location to a BG...who might just start shooting at the light, and therefore at you.

We discuss this one a lot here. Proper use of a white light is NOT to turn it on and run around with it. That's certainly a bullet-magnet.

Proper use is something like, "flash, move, ... flash, move ... flash, SHOOT, move ..." etc. The dazzling effect of a very bright weapon light also can also momentarily disable the attacker allowing you a critical second or so to make that shot count. But, no it isn't a good idea to stand there like a lighthouse in the fog.

Quote:

IF my home gets invaded - heaven forbid for any of us - we have a safe room...thats where we all go. Steel door, reinforced yadda yadda...cell phones etc...my wife calls 911, and we all hunker down and wait...me, my son, and my little girl have 20 gauges...this ain't the movies...it's real....why would I wander around the house if BGs are there? NFW, man. we retreat to our safe place, close the door, and work the slides...

Certainly a very sound strategy. Make sure the stuff that matters is inside the perimeter and don't risk your life for the stuff that can be replaced.

DRZinn · May 16, 2011, 04:58 PM

Well, Sam made most of my points, but here goes anyway:

Pistol grip because I like it and it's more comfortable for me.
Flashlight to identify a target.
12 gauge because it's the biggest thing made mass-market. I don't have kids, and my wife can handle a 12.

mljdeckard · May 16, 2011, 07:35 PM

I don't have a problem with pistol grips on shotguns. but I won't use a pistol grip ONLY shotgun. Of course if they make guns so much more difficult to control and handle, we should stop using them on defensive rifles too.

I don't see any possible downside to using 12 gauge rather than 20. Even as a kid, I very rarely shot anything other than 12.

If you think a light is a bad thing, you need to learn to use one correctly.

DRZinn · May 17, 2011, 01:14 AM

Yeah, pistol grip only is useless for 99% of real-world shotgun applications.

fatcat4620 · May 17, 2011, 05:56 PM

The day I finaly get that third arm surgically added I will take the light.off of my shotgun. (and its 12 gauge by the way)

RugerMcMarlin · May 17, 2011, 06:15 PM

My antisocial shotgun is a 870 express turkey, 24" screw in chokes, one bored saturday I bought an extended tube magazine for it, Perfect I thought, Now load it up, @#$%% thats heavy and slow, tape half a brick to your barrel and try it before you spend money on one. If I'm in a fight, I think I'll want it as light and magical as that perfect bird gun. I also have a Mossberg 835 with a turkey barrell that is kind of heavy but almost perfectly balanced, still pretty quick, and eats every thing. Currently working on a Franchi 20 ga auto /combat version project based on FIRSTEST WITH THE MOSTIST theory,I'll let you know how it turns out.

RugerMcMarlin · May 18, 2011, 12:57 AM

I've heard this pistol grip only is useless thing so many times, can anyone give me a why besides all the expert say so? I tend to think all it would require was practice. I mean if you can't afford enough shells to get proficient thats like a logical reason, lots of other firearms benefit from being more compact. Rifles are easier to hit with than handguns, but you can do amazing things with practice. Go ahead Tee up.

DRZinn · May 18, 2011, 01:10 AM

Very simple, really. Ya can't aim without a stock. Now, at bad breath distance practice can get you good enough to make a center-mass shot from the hip. Across a room? Down a hallway? Not so much.

RugerMcMarlin · May 18, 2011, 01:33 AM

Thanks Zinn, sounds like maybe it's based on personal experience. Not just what somebody told you. I think tho in the intrest of experimentation, and cause I want one any way, I'm going to get a mossberg 410 w/ pistol grip, I've been toying with the idea for a snake gun on our 4 wheeler. My buddys cabin is ratley snake central, Oklahoma. If you guys are all correct, maybe you can look forward to no more stupid questions from me. HEHE

DRZinn · May 18, 2011, 01:47 AM

Get a folding stock - best of both worlds.

kayak-man · May 18, 2011, 03:50 AM

I know tone doesn't carry over very well on the internet, so if I sound a bit snarky, its unintentional.

Quote:

Get your wannabee Rambo heads out of your butts and stop buying into the tactical bullcrap marketing nonsense. Get a dead stock Mossie 500 pump. Learn how to use it. Practice. And while I am at it...all you need to put a tunnel through a BG is a 20 gauge...anything bigger is simply unnecessary. Unnecessary recoil...unnecessary ammo expense...can't realistically be used by smaller members of your family...complete overkill. A 20 gauge will stop anyone in a home invasion scenario right square in their tracks.

Good point.... except for a couple things:

1 - I'm assuming by "tactical nonsense" you're suggesting not mounting a light on your shotgun. I do not have a light mounted on my shotgun, but I think they are a good idea. In my state you have to identify the guy in your house for it to be a clean shoot, and having a light goes a long way towards that.

2 - 20 guage is usually more expensive than 12 guage. And its easier to find 12 guage shells. and the recoil isn't really all that bad. so really, I would say that if you can handle the recoil, theres no reason why you shouldn't have a twelve guage.

3 - I apreciate the invitation for me to come over and get shot at, but I think I'll pass. We try to avoid that kind of macho posturing here on THR. It doesn't really prove anything, and since no one is going to drive X miles just so you can shoot them, its kind of a moot point. Think about it - People wouldn't volunteer to get shot at with a 20Lb long bow or a pellet rifle, but that doesn't make those the best tools for home defence.

4 - I'm guessing you like Mossbergs a lot. Thats cool. I'm more of a Remington guy myself.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

**Sam1911** · May 18, 2011, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RugerMcMarlin

I've heard this pistol grip only is useless thing so many times, can anyone give me a why besides all the expert say so?

Your humble shotgun forum Moderator Dave McCracken wrote the definitive treatise on that subject back in 2003: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465

RugerMcMarlin · May 19, 2011, 04:28 PM

OK , Enough of this BS, I want to hear from someone who has actually shot someone, with a shotgun, what did did you find advantageous or limiting with your shotgun. Note I dont care why ,your motives are your own. Poppin Skinnys, Hadjis like that, Please dont start with "IN REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE",
have some of you been somewhere else?

Oh yeah, if 20 gauges were as effective as 12 gauges at ANYTHING we wouldn't have 12 gauges!

RugerMcMarlin · May 19, 2011, 06:24 PM

Sorry Everyone, Came out harsher than I intended. It is my opinion that anyone who has actually had to use a shotgun for defense or offense is doing their best to forget it. Probably not very intrested in sharing their thoughts and feeling either. I know some of you have been to gunsite or Clint Smiths deal, or maybe some law enforcement training , fine, that only makes you more qualified than me. Until you've limited out a few times, your not an expert.

Now you guys were having fun with this so I'll leave you to it.

Doxiedad · May 29, 2011, 11:32 PM

Is 24" barrel too long for home defense? 2 years ago I came across a good deal on a Benelli Super Nova for $300 new in box, couldn't pass it up since I had no shotgun at the time.

Since then I've been looking at the shorter 18" ones and thinking about trading my 24" for a shorter one.

Dave McCracken · May 30, 2011, 10:47 PM

IMO, no,D-Dad. If you shoot it well,stick to it.

You can try a test. Someone you know has a short barreled pump gun. Shoot a few drills with that and with yours. If scores and times are similar, no need to change.

RugerMcMarlin · June 2, 2011, 12:13 PM

DoDad, keep the 24", the 18" isn't threaded for chokes. You have a very versatile gun just the way it is. I'm a big fan of the super nova.

Doxiedad · June 2, 2011, 12:14 PM

Awesome, thanks for the replies

oldvet53 · June 8, 2011, 04:45 PM

mine is a Mossberg 500 with synthetic furniture in 20ga. I have a 18.5" and a 26" ribbed with a screw in full choke so it is not only used as HD but can also be used in the field.

May 16, 2011, 01:59 PM	#276
DRZinn Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: In a pot of water, 200 degrees and rising slowly.... Posts: 3,991	Your screed against all accessories makes exactly as much sense as the people who over-accessorize. And is less polite. I have a 12-gauge with a pistol grip, a flashlight, and a red-dot sight. Am I stupid? Please tell me why, since apparently I fail to understand why I don't need any of those things. __________________ "...there's always somebody else out there that needs to be whacked"... MajGen James Mattis, to Co G, Third Battalion, Twenty-Third Marines, in Al Kut, Iraq, July 2003 What I do.

May 16, 2011, 02:25 PM	#278
mljdeckard Member Join Date: June 5, 2006 Location: In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine. Posts: 11,720	You speak opinion as if it were fact. And we don't try to see whose is bigger on this forum. __________________ "Well I can assure you young man, that neither my companion or I carry firearms on our person. We rely upon the goodwill of our fellow man, and the forbearance of reptiles." -English Bob

May 16, 2011, 02:33 PM	#281
mljdeckard Member Join Date: June 5, 2006 Location: In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine. Posts: 11,720	What if he's between you and the safe room? (And you talk about unnecessary frills on a shotgun.) __________________ "Well I can assure you young man, that neither my companion or I carry firearms on our person. We rely upon the goodwill of our fellow man, and the forbearance of reptiles." -English Bob

May 16, 2011, 04:58 PM	#283
DRZinn Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: In a pot of water, 200 degrees and rising slowly.... Posts: 3,991	Well, Sam made most of my points, but here goes anyway: Pistol grip because I like it and it's more comfortable for me. Flashlight to identify a target. 12 gauge because it's the biggest thing made mass-market. I don't have kids, and my wife can handle a 12. __________________ "...there's always somebody else out there that needs to be whacked"... MajGen James Mattis, to Co G, Third Battalion, Twenty-Third Marines, in Al Kut, Iraq, July 2003 What I do.

May 16, 2011, 07:35 PM	#284
mljdeckard Member Join Date: June 5, 2006 Location: In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine. Posts: 11,720	I don't have a problem with pistol grips on shotguns. but I won't use a pistol grip ONLY shotgun. Of course if they make guns so much more difficult to control and handle, we should stop using them on defensive rifles too. I don't see any possible downside to using 12 gauge rather than 20. Even as a kid, I very rarely shot anything other than 12. If you think a light is a bad thing, you need to learn to use one correctly. __________________ "Well I can assure you young man, that neither my companion or I carry firearms on our person. We rely upon the goodwill of our fellow man, and the forbearance of reptiles." -English Bob

May 16, 2011, 02:21 PM	#277
CanadianFreedom Member Join Date: May 16, 2011 Posts: 3	Oh yes...I forgot! FYI....a 20 gauge shell in standard buck load has the ballistic impact of two .357 magnums...talk about a double tap through one tap...know anyone who is going to just "wade through" that kind of welcome? I don't even use buck in my Mossie. bird only. I don't want to go to jail for the rest of my life...and anyone who thinks bird is anything but a solid stream of lead at 20-25 feet (still a relatively long distance in a home invasion scenario) is dreaming in technicolour...it is more than enough to put anyone down, on the spot. Enough for the job...unless, of course, my home is being invaded by Delta Force or JTF2... And again, I invite anyone to field test the effectiveness of a 20 gauge with appropriate birdshot at 20-25 feet. Any volunteers? Unfortunately, I highly doubt you would be able to write a followup review...

May 16, 2011, 02:31 PM	#280
CanadianFreedom Member Join Date: May 16, 2011 Posts: 3	Zinn: Can I ask you a question? Why do you feel you need a 12 gauge? Pistol grips on shorguns are considered by most to hamper accuracy, not enhance it. Of course, I understand it's all about works for the individual...but sometimes I believe people just don't give stock guns their chance. Just practice with a stock shottie...to me, a pistol grip is completely unnecessary... If you become disabled in a home invasion...can your 12 year old daughter shoot the 12 gauge? A 20 gauge can be shot by almost all members of your family...and isn't that important? As for a light...I understand..........you want to see what's up, and who it is, before you shoot. I appreciate that sensibility...but it has one major drawback. You just advertised your exact location to a BG...who might just start shooting at the light, and therefore at you. IF my home gets invaded - heaven forbid for any of us - we have a safe room...thats where we all go. Steel door, reinforced yadda yadda...cell phones etc...my wife calls 911, and we all hunker down and wait...me, my son, and my little girl have 20 gauges...this ain't the movies...it's real....why would I wander around the house if BGs are there? NFW, man. we retreat to our safe place, close the door, and work the slides...

May 17, 2011, 01:14 AM	#285
DRZinn Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: In a pot of water, 200 degrees and rising slowly.... Posts: 3,991	Yeah, pistol grip only is useless for 99% of real-world shotgun applications. __________________ "...there's always somebody else out there that needs to be whacked"... MajGen James Mattis, to Co G, Third Battalion, Twenty-Third Marines, in Al Kut, Iraq, July 2003 What I do.

May 17, 2011, 05:56 PM	#286
fatcat4620 Member Join Date: December 28, 2010 Location: TN Posts: 1,249	The day I finaly get that third arm surgically added I will take the light.off of my shotgun. (and its 12 gauge by the way)

May 17, 2011, 06:15 PM	#287
RugerMcMarlin Member Join Date: April 19, 2011 Posts: 979	My antisocial shotgun is a 870 express turkey, 24" screw in chokes, one bored saturday I bought an extended tube magazine for it, Perfect I thought, Now load it up, @#$%% thats heavy and slow, tape half a brick to your barrel and try it before you spend money on one. If I'm in a fight, I think I'll want it as light and magical as that perfect bird gun. I also have a Mossberg 835 with a turkey barrell that is kind of heavy but almost perfectly balanced, still pretty quick, and eats every thing. Currently working on a Franchi 20 ga auto /combat version project based on FIRSTEST WITH THE MOSTIST theory,I'll let you know how it turns out.

May 18, 2011, 12:57 AM	#288
RugerMcMarlin Member Join Date: April 19, 2011 Posts: 979	I've heard this pistol grip only is useless thing so many times, can anyone give me a why besides all the expert say so? I tend to think all it would require was practice. I mean if you can't afford enough shells to get proficient thats like a logical reason, lots of other firearms benefit from being more compact. Rifles are easier to hit with than handguns, but you can do amazing things with practice. Go ahead Tee up.

May 18, 2011, 01:10 AM	#289
DRZinn Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: In a pot of water, 200 degrees and rising slowly.... Posts: 3,991	Very simple, really. Ya can't aim without a stock. Now, at bad breath distance practice can get you good enough to make a center-mass shot from the hip. Across a room? Down a hallway? Not so much. __________________ "...there's always somebody else out there that needs to be whacked"... MajGen James Mattis, to Co G, Third Battalion, Twenty-Third Marines, in Al Kut, Iraq, July 2003 What I do.

May 18, 2011, 01:33 AM	#290
RugerMcMarlin Member Join Date: April 19, 2011 Posts: 979	Thanks Zinn, sounds like maybe it's based on personal experience. Not just what somebody told you. I think tho in the intrest of experimentation, and cause I want one any way, I'm going to get a mossberg 410 w/ pistol grip, I've been toying with the idea for a snake gun on our 4 wheeler. My buddys cabin is ratley snake central, Oklahoma. If you guys are all correct, maybe you can look forward to no more stupid questions from me. HEHE

May 18, 2011, 01:47 AM	#291
DRZinn Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: In a pot of water, 200 degrees and rising slowly.... Posts: 3,991	Get a folding stock - best of both worlds. __________________ "...there's always somebody else out there that needs to be whacked"... MajGen James Mattis, to Co G, Third Battalion, Twenty-Third Marines, in Al Kut, Iraq, July 2003 What I do.

May 19, 2011, 04:28 PM	#294
RugerMcMarlin Member Join Date: April 19, 2011 Posts: 979	OK , Enough of this BS, I want to hear from someone who has actually shot someone, with a shotgun, what did did you find advantageous or limiting with your shotgun. Note I dont care why ,your motives are your own. Poppin Skinnys, Hadjis like that, Please dont start with "IN REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE", have some of you been somewhere else? Oh yeah, if 20 gauges were as effective as 12 gauges at ANYTHING we wouldn't have 12 gauges! Last edited by RugerMcMarlin; May 19, 2011 at 04:39 PM.

May 19, 2011, 06:24 PM	#295
RugerMcMarlin Member Join Date: April 19, 2011 Posts: 979	Sorry Everyone, Came out harsher than I intended. It is my opinion that anyone who has actually had to use a shotgun for defense or offense is doing their best to forget it. Probably not very intrested in sharing their thoughts and feeling either. I know some of you have been to gunsite or Clint Smiths deal, or maybe some law enforcement training , fine, that only makes you more qualified than me. Until you've limited out a few times, your not an expert. Now you guys were having fun with this so I'll leave you to it.

May 29, 2011, 11:32 PM	#296
Doxiedad Member Join Date: May 1, 2011 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 163	Is 24" barrel too long for home defense? 2 years ago I came across a good deal on a Benelli Super Nova for $300 new in box, couldn't pass it up since I had no shotgun at the time. Since then I've been looking at the shorter 18" ones and thinking about trading my 24" for a shorter one. __________________ ”Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.”

May 30, 2011, 10:47 PM	#297
Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: MD. Posts: 13,941	IMO, no,D-Dad. If you shoot it well,stick to it. You can try a test. Someone you know has a short barreled pump gun. Shoot a few drills with that and with yours. If scores and times are similar, no need to change.

June 2, 2011, 12:13 PM	#298
RugerMcMarlin Member Join Date: April 19, 2011 Posts: 979	DoDad, keep the 24", the 18" isn't threaded for chokes. You have a very versatile gun just the way it is. I'm a big fan of the super nova.

June 2, 2011, 12:14 PM	#299
Doxiedad Member Join Date: May 1, 2011 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 163	Awesome, thanks for the replies __________________ ”Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.”

June 8, 2011, 04:45 PM	#300
oldvet53 Member Join Date: June 4, 2011 Location: N.E.Arkansas Posts: 27	mine is a Mossberg 500 with synthetic furniture in 20ga. I have a 18.5" and a 26" ribbed with a screw in full choke so it is not only used as HD but can also be used in the field. __________________ Life Member N.R.A.,Member American Legion, " What is popular is not always right and What is right is not always popular". "Only 2 people ever offered to die for you, Jesus and the American Fighting Man".