Quantcast
On Fighting Shotguns.... - Page 3 - THR
THR  

Go Back   THR > Tools and Technologies > Shotguns

Welcome to THR
You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have, access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!


If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit the help section.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 12, 2008, 12:16 PM   #51
Owlnmole
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 11, 2008
Posts: 767
Quote:
Why does Remington sell their HD/LE 870s with a 18.5" cyl bore barrel, then put on their buckshot boxes "best when fired in a full choke"?
Because the 18.5 in barrels are meant to shoot rifled slugs, too, and a full choke is not recommended for that?
__________________
"Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"
--Mae West as Lady Lou in "She Done Him Wrong"
Owlnmole is offline  
Old May 12, 2008, 02:37 PM   #52
jdh
Member
 
 
Join Date: January 5, 2008
Posts: 849
It just struck me as a bit of a contradiction that they marked the box for the primary ammo to be used in the gun with that statement.

BTW, that is why I have a seperate slug gun. Making consistant 100 yd. head shots with a pump 12 ga. really irritates the sniper, excuse me, I mean long range precision rifle operator.
jdh is offline  
Old May 23, 2008, 12:42 AM   #53
Popcorn Coolie
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 10, 2006
Posts: 7
I'd say it's just common sense & preference.

A high output flashlight does come in handy for identification and can be used to stun targets long enough to hinder their aggression or convince them to surrender. Provided you deploy the tactic correctly. But it's not a need it's an advantage. A distraction device that could disorient the challenger long enough to evade his line of fire giving you a safe position to return fire.

In my opinion shell carriers get in the way and if you're not gonna paint the shells black you may as well not get a subdued finish to begin with.

As for finish. It depends on how much stealth you prefer. All it takes is some light to bounce off of those red shells, brass blueing or wood. I notice those things in low light conditions so whatever draws my attention will surely draw someone else's.

I prefer to use the term combat or tactical because it sounds like the tool of profesional instead of a barbarian. It's a strategical tool not a malicious tool.

As for brand. Usually pump shotguns don't fail. They are so simplistic they really shouldn't fail, but I've seen it. Poor springs and poor machineing will eventtually produce sloppy action and unexpected failure.

When you pay that extra money for an 870 a 590 or whatever you are really paying for reassurance. The reassurance that the gun will withstand wear and tear and operate when you need it to as long as it's properly maintained.

Plus the M&P grade shotguns always cost more, because they are heavy duty and less are made.

An 870 is so cheap anyway. Usually fin has them on sale for $159. 18" open or improved cylinder with bead sight. In my opinion it's well worth the $159.

I got my Benelli Classic Nova with 18.5" OC Barrel with fixed blad rifle sights for $75. It was used as a T&E but it was refurbished. It works great. It looks kind of tacky, but whatever, I'm not putting on a fashion show.
Popcorn Coolie is offline  
Old May 23, 2008, 09:50 AM   #54
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
 
 
Join Date: December 20, 2002
Location: MD.
Posts: 13,938
"I'm not putting on a fashion show"....

Classic quote. Thanks.

All too often, fashion seems to rule over common sense. If the local legend who kicks all butts on the shotgun courses wore lederhosen while so doing, German leather stocks would see a local spike.

The Motto, "Whatever works" applies here.
Dave McCracken is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 12:40 PM   #55
SWDoc
Member
 
 
Join Date: February 2, 2008
Posts: 111
Good input on doubles. Any thoughts on the Benelli M4 Tactical?

Reliable auto makes sense to me, from a controllability standpoint (sp). I have heard of some fantastic times on multiple steel using the M4. Reliability seems to be acceptable, and the Nova I own for duck/goose is a really well built shotgun.

Your opinions for this shotgun in HD?

Steve
SWDoc is offline  
Old May 30, 2008, 01:31 PM   #56
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
 
 
Join Date: December 20, 2002
Location: MD.
Posts: 13,938
No experience with the M4, or indeed with any of the Benellis.

The Ayoob test would determine if it's acceptable for HD. 200 rounds of duty ammo glitchless. If it passes, I see no reason to ignore it.
Dave McCracken is offline  
Old May 31, 2008, 11:50 AM   #57
Jst1mr
Member
 
 
Join Date: April 22, 2008
Posts: 277
Dave, or any other-

I know the crux of the discussion is software vs hardware, but I gotta ask - if speed and agility are tantamount(given proficiency), then why not more mention of 20gauge? Less flash, recoil, weight, still packs a punch...
Jst1mr is offline  
Old May 31, 2008, 01:06 PM   #58
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
 
 
Join Date: December 20, 2002
Location: MD.
Posts: 13,938
Why not?

I'm now out of touch, but I knew some B more narcs that favored 20 gauge SXS shotguns for raid guns.

As to why there's not more on the 20.....

Conservatism. What we have been using works.

The More Is Better Principle. That's why we have 15 pellet 00 loads.

Ammo commonality. The US shotgunner has been sold on the 12. Using the same gauge for hunting recreation and defense eases logistics.
Dave McCracken is offline  
Old May 31, 2008, 01:41 PM   #59
1557
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 12, 2005
Posts: 174
I think use of the 20 ga. could bear some discussion. It's certainly less potent than the 12,of course,but I still think it will get the job done.
I have taken two bobcats with a 20 ga. Browning at night using #3 buck.
At the time that was the largest shot available for the 20 and may still be,I'm not really abreast of that.
I happened to handle an 870 fighter in 20 ga. last week and I really liked the light weight and thought at the time it would be a very practical shotgun for the wife,due to the lighter weight and less wallop on the shoulder. I suppose I may have been just trying to justify it for myself as it was such a neat little package.
In the end I passed on it,but there may be one in the future.
__________________
To be born free is an accident.To live free is a priviledge.To die free is a responsibility.
1557 is offline  
Old May 31, 2008, 02:30 PM   #60
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
 
 
Join Date: December 20, 2002
Location: MD.
Posts: 13,938
1557, so do I.

Shotgunners and those who may need shotguns come in all sizes.

So do shotguns. A 20 gauge scaled to a 5', 100 lb shooter would be way more useable for him/her than my pet HD 12 gauge, all 9 plus lbs of it.

The little 20 gauge YE here did nicely with 3 buck on the few Practical COFS I've done with it. Its current job is as quail gun. Speed and effectiveness are givens.

In fact, that Mossberg 410 pump with proper ammo has a place also. Posit an elderly person with little upper body strength living in a place where handguns are prohibited.

Matching the gun to the gunner is a great idea.
Dave McCracken is offline  
Old June 10, 2008, 05:10 PM   #61
tenbears
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 6, 2008
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 48
Almost any style of shotgun will do for home protection. A word of warning for apartment, condominium and any other living areas that are side by side. Do NOT use buckshot, use a lighter load. I prefer BB sized shot in an apartment type home cause you don't want to kill your neighbor if you have to shoot that thing.
Just keep your weapon simple and easy to handle and practice allot. Just my thoughts.
__________________
"It's better to burn out, than it is to rust".

http://www.22longrifleclub.com
tenbears is offline  
Old June 13, 2008, 08:33 PM   #62
swordsman2000
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 13, 2008
Posts: 14
i just don't get the belief that a PG shotgun is "SOOOOO Terrible" compared to a stock...i got an 18 inch mossy cruiser, PG with a removeable sliding stock, and with my federal flight controls OO 9 pellet, i routinely put them all on the man target (spot of my choice) at 20 yards going PGO
swordsman2000 is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 03:47 AM   #63
NvTwist
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 24, 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV.
Posts: 66
I made a short video showing how important getting training and or just getting out there and shoot, shoot and shoot some more. I Bought this Maverick 88 from wal-mart one day on a whim just cause it was so cheap, I only stopped there to get some extra ear plugs for some friends I was taking out shooting with me. Bought a box of clays, manual clay thrower & ammo. I was impressed how smooth this cheap gun cycled and we all had a blast. Filmed this a few months later back in march of last year after I changed the long railed trap barrel out for a Mossberg 18.5".

First up was a buddy of mine. This was not his first time shooting my 12ga, in fact this was the last few shells out of 4 boxes that day. I gave him a little challenge, fire as fast as he could while aiming and hitting his target, not just spray and pray. Then I was up, After I stopped laughing and replaying his clip over and over again I had to get a clip of me and the difference shows. Then just for fun had my girl film another volley well after the sun went down just for the fun of it cause these shells had a visible flame in full sunlight and the desert ground would dust itself off with every shot.
Video link to YouTube

I don't have any official training on shotgun and don't claim to be great by any means. I have attended a few courses at Front Sight for submachine training and cert, Long range rifle & then some sidearm skills.
But this video I edited together easily shows its not the tool that gets the job done, it's the person behind the tool that matters most.
NvTwist is offline  
Old June 26, 2008, 05:07 PM   #64
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
 
 
Join Date: December 20, 2002
Location: MD.
Posts: 13,938
Swordsman, run some drills with both a PGO and a regular stock on that Mossberg. Time them. Speed and accuracy will be better with the regular stock. Much better.

Thanks for the vid, Nv. Proper technique is as essential as oxygen....
Dave McCracken is offline  
Old June 27, 2008, 08:32 PM   #65
swordsman2000
Member
 
 
Join Date: June 13, 2008
Posts: 14
dave..in this silly world of details..yes, overall a stock is more accurate...but since the world is a subjective one, a stock is not always "better"...in my home; tactically speaky, the stock is a hinderance..ntm i don't need to shoot anyone with my shooty at 20 yards unless complete civil disorder has occured...then the stock would go back on.

too many people like to proprogate the myth that pgo can't hit worth a damn,,but that just ain't so
swordsman2000 is offline  
Old June 27, 2008, 09:02 PM   #66
sm
member
 
 
Join Date: December 22, 2002
Location: Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
Posts: 28,389
Quote:
swordsman2000 wrote:

dave..in this silly world of details..yes, overall a stock is more accurate...but since the world is a subjective one, a stock is not always "better"...in my home; tactically speaky, the stock is a hinderance..ntm i don't need to shoot anyone with my shooty at 20 yards unless complete civil disorder has occured...then the stock would go back on.

too many people like to proprogate the myth that pgo can't hit worth a damn,,but that just ain't so
Interesting.

Just wanted to jot this down for future reference...
sm is offline  
Old June 27, 2008, 09:19 PM   #67
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
 
 
Join Date: December 20, 2002
Location: MD.
Posts: 13,938
Sigh...

Until we can install an extra hinge in our forearm, the standard stock poses no disadvantage over the PGO in close scenarios if you insist on hip shooting.

As far as your comment goes about 20 yards, I don't see any way to predict the distance of our next firefight. That's another reason to want a real stock.

I've practiced out to 30 yards with buck and 100 yards with slugs. I've also worked some scenarios at one foot. The stock on my 870 was no handicap at any distance.
Dave McCracken is offline  
Old June 27, 2008, 09:36 PM   #68
13.45
Member
 
 
Join Date: November 14, 2003
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico
Posts: 154
lots of good info here. KISS is one old saw that comes to mind. another is, "you fight as you train"
__________________
thanks very much,
robert (13.45)
NRA Benefactor Life Member
13.45 is offline  
Old June 27, 2008, 10:29 PM   #69
xx7grant7x
Member
 
 
Join Date: December 10, 2007
Posts: 382
I'll throw my personal preferences in the ring, I agree with the diminished ability of a pistol grip only stock. On my hd gun I've got the speedfeed with the combination pistol grip/buttstock and love the enhanced feel of the gun. On the note of the speedfeed, it holds 4 shells inside the stock and in my opinion better to have something and not need it than need and not have so along with the speedfeed I've got a sidesaddle shell carrier alternating the way the shells go is a good trick for keeping different shells easily identifiable (i.e. slugs up buckshot down). and in my final necessity for HD I need a flashlight i know bad guys aren't always creeping around in the dark but alot of the time they are and if i can get any kind of advantage I'm going to take it. these are just my thoughts and preferences but thats what it's all about. It was great to read everyone else's ideas and and they gave me some new ones
xx7grant7x is offline  
Old June 28, 2008, 01:10 AM   #70
JShirley
Administrator
  
 
Join Date: December 20, 2002
Location: DC
Posts: 18,885
Quote:
Accessories like Ghost ring sights...are very "Cool", but each detracts from speed and efficiency and you must decide if it's worth it.
That's a nonsensical statement, because if the user didn't feel it increased efficiency, there would be no place for it on a fighting gun. It's also dangerous to assume what works best for others. I've fired more 5.56mm through carbines than all other ammunition types combined in my life. I was always using a peep sight. A GR sight fits easily into my training, and a sling and a shorter LOP stock made my 500 ready to go. I didn't go for an extended mag tube so my balance wouldn't be off.

And I only use slugs, reduced recoil typically, with KOs on standbye for harder targets.
JShirley is offline  
Old June 28, 2008, 01:48 AM   #71
sm
member
 
 
Join Date: December 22, 2002
Location: Between black coffee, and shiftn' gears
Posts: 28,389
Quote:
John wrote:
It's also dangerous to assume what works best for others. I've fired more 5.56mm through carbines than all other ammunition types combined in my life. I was always using a peep sight. A GR sight fits easily into my training, and a sling and a shorter LOP stock made my 500 ready to go. I didn't go for an extended mag tube so my balance wouldn't be off.
Bold is mine.

I have more trigger time on shotguns with no sights, front bead only , or mid bead.
Barrels were most often 28" or longer.
My "human computer" is distracted by hi-vis sights.

Yes, even before The Great Equipment Race, we had our serious defensive lessons, and even "Two Gun" though we used rifle, shotgun and pistol, and used, bone stock, full stocked, longer barrel shotguns.

There is no "one-size-fits-all", one must be brutally honest with what they can and cannot do, and what level of skill sets they have, with whatever platform they choose.

Awerbuck said it best, and it is worth remembering:

I will not be at your gunfight.

Chilling if you really think about it, as none of your Intrawebz buddies that posted pics of kewl toys are going to be with you, nor will anyone that attended a class by Awerbuck, Clint Smith, or any other trainer, be with you as well.

Aw man, this reality stuff sure does get in the way and muck up the joint at times...don't it?
sm is offline  
Old June 28, 2008, 01:51 AM   #72
gtmerkley
member
 
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Location: Southern Hoosier state away from South Bend
Posts: 300
97 Winchester
gtmerkley is offline  
Old June 28, 2008, 02:20 AM   #73
Limeyfellow
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 31, 2005
Location: NC, USA
Posts: 1,394
Quote:
Accessories like Ghost ring sights...are very "Cool", but each detracts from speed and efficiency and you must decide if it's worth it.
I always preferred Ghost ring sights to the front bead. My eyesight is kind of funky, so I have trouble with bead sights and blade and notch sights on rifles too, so they have their place depending on the operator.

On my 590 I never bothered with a magazine extender for weight, but I can put a light on it quite easily. I put on a quick detached sling too so it doesn't get tangled up with stuff in the house.

I found the most important thing is to practice, especially with reloading preferably after every shot fired, while the rifle is held ready, but while I can use bead sights I am not sure I would be super comfortable relying on them, especially in the middle of the night situation.
Limeyfellow is offline  
Old June 28, 2008, 08:37 AM   #74
ar10
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 23, 2007
Posts: 1,356
I've got a "cheapo" 500. I bought new on sale for 250.00 and got it for only one reason, home defense. It's simple and shoots every time. The only modification was getting one of those adjustable stocks because the original was just too long for me to use.
A couple of years ago they started having "2 gun matches" at the range it go to and it included a shotgun/handgun scenario. I participate every month and it's a big help. The gun is simple to strip and clean and in the 8 years I've owned I've only had two malfunctions, both were my fault.
Because it's a home defense gun I keep it loaded with the first two 00 buckshot, then 2 slugs and the rest 00 buckshot. One thing I did learn a long time ago is individuals intent on breaking into a house fear to things, a dog and the sound of someone racking a shotgun shell. (It was a criminal justice survey of convicted buglers while in incarcerated back in the 1980's).
ar10 is offline  
Old June 28, 2008, 11:16 AM   #75
JShirley
Administrator
  
 
Join Date: December 20, 2002
Location: DC
Posts: 18,885
Years ago, I was in an RV camp. My wife and I worked third shift, and we often would take a walk to relax before going to bed.

I guess we disturbed one of the residents, because we heard the Ker-Shak! of an SKS bolt slamming shut.

Oddly enough, our walk took us away from that area immediately...Thing about this is, I never want to rely on "intimidation factor". Yes, it may work. Yes, it probably will work. If it doesn't work, I've just telegraphed my position and armament. I don't want to bet on may or probably. I'm willing to bet on a 1 oz slug that hits a human threat at 1200 fps, though.

John
JShirley is offline  
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise.
This site, its contents, Shooting Reviews, and its contents are Copyright (c) 2010-2013 Firearms Forum, Inc.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER
Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages.