On Fighting Shotguns....

[mavracer]

yes, ultimately you need to ID the target before you shoot.anyway you want to say it.
or am I to understand your going to shoot anyway even if Mr BG puts hands in the air when you light him up.

[JShirley]

your banter and personal attacks on Chiefton were and are out of line and as an administrator of The High Road you should be above that

Sir, if you will show me an instance where I have used personal attack, I will apologize for it.

rbernie addressed much of the rest, but as for

I belive chiefton refered to a surefire

I have two SureFires, and a Black Bear that puts out 3-5x as much light as most SureFires. I believe options are good, but if one believes merely illuminating a threat is enough to make it be good and go to bed quietly, good luck with that.

Regards,

John

[mavracer]

but if one believes merely illuminating a threat is enough to make it be good and go to bed quietly, good luck with that.

OK fine don't put a light on him just go ahead and shoot and good luck with the murder charges.

[JShirley]

Let's start by thinking before we post.

I have suggested that using a weapon-mounted light is not the ideal way to handle a potential home invader.

I have suggested using alternating lighting to be sure clear target ID is accomplished. What murder charges, exactly? If I shoot a clear threat, I will be tried by a jury of my peers...why, exactly? Let's even ignore the fact that in my state, I can legally shoot anyone who does not live in my domicile, who has entered by force.

I have spoken against what I perceive as the foolish bravado of ostentatiously charging a weapon, and even more strongly at doing this while illumating what is supposed but not known to be a threat.

So, again, what murder charges? Murder charges for what? Do you have something substantive to add?

John

[mavracer]

I have suggested that using a weapon-mounted light is not the ideal way to handle a potential home invader.

And your entitled to your opinion, I disagree as do others.

If I shoot a clear threat, I will be tried by a jury of my peers...why, exactly? Let's even ignore the fact that in my state, I can legally shoot anyone who does not live in my domicile, who has entered by force.

unfortunately your not the one that gets to define in your case clear threat that will be the DA.
out of curiousity (admittadly I don't know) does your castle doctrine protect you from a civil wrongfull death case?
I checked It does.

[45Guy]

Wow, this informative thread turned into a battle royale pretty quick.

[ar10]

Wow, this informative thread turned into a battle royale pretty quick

. YUP.

Everyone has an opinion.
A good practice, if anyone wants to try it out, and you can use an airsoft or paintball gun, is to hold a flashlight or surefire or any other handheld light with your off hand and your weapon in the other. Flash the target for no more than 5 seconds, douse the light and fire your shot. 5 to 10 seconds is all it takes for an "opponent" (BG if you prefer) to zero in on the target holding the light. After you take a shot then move, rather quickly, to another position and do it again.

[JShirley]

I don't mean to imply that I disagree with a mounted light on a weapon. Versatility is good. I'm a lot more likely to take a shot at stuff that doesn't shoot back (like hogs, legal in GA) with that light, though.

If using the light to engage a threat, I believe the light should be used not to ID the target, but to illuminate your sights. Of course, usage really belongs more in the tactics forum. As I said previously, I would be a lot more likely to use a light in hopes of stopping a confrontation without (potentially) lethal force if I have other friendlies with weapons trained on the threat. In that case, I have at least one light (the previously mentioned Black Bear Borealis) that can illuminate a threat at hundreds of meters, including small animals at least two hundred meters away through rain, snow, or heavy airborne dust. Tested. (Didja know they have foxes in Afghanistan?) I had an ODA joker that liked to flash people with his SureFire. He flashed me with his SureFire, and I flashed him with my Black Bear...and he, thinking his batteries must be dying because my light was so much brighter, flashed himself in the eyes.

I think the various choices that could be called "intimidation" factors may be successful, rather like hitting someone with something may hurt them enough to cause them to stop attacking. The only thing that works 100% of the time, though, is breaking the machine.

Structural
Hydraulic
Electrical failure.

I sure as hell don't want to shoot someone in my place. It'll be hell to clean up, and if I haven't had time to don ear pro, it'll damage my hearing. Those things are bad.

As I said in a conversation I had with a moderator at lunch yesterday, if I see a home invader in my dwelling (there is ALWAYS sufficient ambient light, and if someone chops down the street lights, I will be sure to take a light with me), I will see if his hands are empty. If he's not covered in blood, is not very close to me, and I can see his empty hands, I may use verbal challenge, i.e., kneel on the floor and place your hands on your head. If he runs, I'll let him go.

If he comes towards me, I'll shoot. If he's holding a weapon, I'll shoot. I'm not law enforcement, and the only obligation I have is to do the right thing and protect myself and my family.

Now, this post is really more about tactics, as many of the last posts have been, so if Dave feels like moving to a separate thread, here or in tactics, that's fine with me.

John

[mavracer]

John,

Exellent post and I agree.
Also I feal this should stay in shotgun because while we have veered into tactics IMHO this is a shotgun related tactic.I would not feel the same with a service caliber handgun.

[Dave McCracken]

I can live with the thread veer. Let's leave it here....

[Carlos Cabeza]

Hi all, It's been awhile. GTBB!
Anyhoo......Question, Can anyone provide info on shotgun OAL and minimum Bbl. length ? Measured from end of chamber ? I am interested in cutting (EEEK!) down an old shotgun. My LQ are rather cabin-ish.

[Sergeant Sabre]

Federally, minimum barrel length is 18", as measured from the breech face to the end of the barrel. I don't know if there is a Federal limit on the over all length.

Check your state laws, as there may be a minimum over all length on that level.

[rantingredneck]

Federal limit on the over all length.

2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun. A weapon made from a shotgun is a shotgun type weapon that
has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_...k/chapter2.pdf

Where this really comes into play is when people cut break action guns down to 18" and then saw the stock off leaving only a pistol grip. That can get you under the 26" minimum length even if you maintain an 18" barrel. Typically your repeaters (pumps/levers/autos) have enough action length to avoid this problem given an 18" barrel.

[rantingredneck]

Speaking of break actions............

I have this strange urge to go pick up an old H&R 12 ga at the gunshow this weekend.

I was wiping down my old H&R .410 that was a Christmas present from my granddad (24 years ago) and it got me thinking about picking one up in 12 ga.

Really like to have an older H&R branded gun rather than a more recent NEF one. Not sure exactly why other than to make it kinda match my old squirrelgetter.

[Carlos Cabeza]

Thanks for the info. Wasn't sure about Bbl. 16" or 18" ? and somehow got min. OAL at 34" ???!? Probably picked that up on some RKBA forum. I'm torn between keep it ( the gun ) and/ or modify it. It's an old 1960's Browning design model 1 or 11 somethin' or nuther semi auto. Has long since proved its requisite reliability. I have many other shotguns for other tasks, but none for defensive situations.

[rbernie]

Really like to have an older H&R branded gun rather than a more recent NEF one. Not sure exactly why other than to make it kinda match my old squirrelgetter

The newer ones are branded H&R again. Get them now, before Remington moved them from Gartner, MA.

[rantingredneck]

Any noticable difference in quality with the newer vs older H&R's??

BTW, I know this is a "fighting shotgun" thread, but this gun will likely be the truck gun with a bandoleer full of mixed buck and slugs.

I think that qualifies.........

[jake3501]

In part of this thread, it was posted that bad guys have a fear of breaking into a house where there will be resistance. Most BGS today are trying to get money to feed a drug habit of some kind, many times meth. They most likely don't have the fear part of their brain working at that time, and certainly don't have the what is right or guilty conscience portion working either, just that you are the necessary step to their next fix. I used to use the distinctive sound argument myself, but have since abandoned that thought. Light attached to gun, I'm still out on that one, probably gonna opt against it as it doesn't have quite the blinding effect a 10 million candle-power spotlight has on jackrabbits. If I'm in a room, I only have to focus on doorway, BG has to look all around room to find me. I just have to make sure it isn't my son or my wife, and I just touched my wifes warm torso before I slinked out of bed.

[alaskanativeson]

Really Jake? Because I have to say, with as sound a sleeper as I am many times, I won't be feeling my sweetie's warm torso because she's going to kneeling beside the bed with sights lined up on target while I'm still reaching for the HK or 590. I married well.

As for the scatter gun, as I mentioned, I have a 590. it's stiff. I mean Viagra stiff. I've put well over 1,000 rounds through it and it's still not as smooth as my BIL's 870 was out of the box. A 870 is on its way to my FFL as I type this. I do like the reliability of the Mossy (in all the rounds I've put through it I've never had a failure to feed, fire, or eject) but I don't like the action. Is this likely something a smith can smooth? Should I just get rid of the 590 and get a Benelli to go with the 870? (I am of the opinion that I can't have too many guns, look at my location and you'll likely figure out why.)

[John C]

John;

I know that police in my area will open unlocked doors and go in houses, but generally as a result of some sort of call, ie alarm, 911 hang-up, or suspicious circumstance call. However, that's not necessary. Local officers have observed open garage doors in the middle of the night and checked them out. Old time walking-beat officers in my city would walk through their beats and check all the doors. If they found an open one, they'd go in and check for burglars.

There's no law that prohibits this. The officer is investigating a suspicious circumstance; this is well within the purview of his duties.

-John

[DRZinn]

BS. An unlocked door is not a "suspicious circumstance."

[chieftain]

I know that police in my area will open unlocked doors and go in houses, but generally as a result of some sort of call, ie alarm, 911 hang-up, or suspicious circumstance call. However, that's not necessary. Local officers have observed open garage doors in the middle of the night and checked them out. Old time walking-beat officers in my city would walk through their beats and check all the doors. If they found an open one, they'd go in and check for burglars.

There's no law that prohibits this. The officer is investigating a suspicious circumstance; this is well within the purview of his duties.

-John

Stuff happens.

BS. An unlocked door is not a "suspicious circumstance."

Just like area’s where open carry is legal, but LEO’s continue to make arrests and harass. Unfortunately to many LEO’s either don’t know the law, or don’t like the law, in many jurisdictions. They need to be educated, and/or fired. It does seem that in some other jurisdictions that the police are carrying out policy of their masters, even when the law doesn’t support it.

I strongly recommend anyone about to shoot someone, EVEN in their own home, take a look at who they are about to terminate. Whoops or the reset button will not fix it.

If you think you can not do that safely, I suggest you hang up your weapons until you can get some good training, and/or feel secure enough in your own abilities. Why, some would ask? Because you are a danger to everyone around you.

Sometimes being right can be very wrong. This is like checking your chamber, when you KNOW it’s empty. Doesn’t hurt to check, if you know what you are doing. But it can be very expensive and freedom limiting if you shoot the wrong person for all the right reasons.


You don't want to be like some of those folks in the graveyard with their headstone saying, "BUT THEY HAD THE RIGHT OF WAY, AND THEY WERE RIGHT". Some things are much more important.

Go figure.

Fred

[JImbothefiveth]

Is a shotgun right for me?

I have an 870, as the 12 gauge may be the most versatile gun on the planet, but should I be using it for HD? I mostly practice with rifles, and I practice every day, so I'm wondering if it will carry over well.

[JShirley]

If you use rifles more, a quick-handling repeater, loaded with appropriate expanding ammunition, may indeed be a better HD choice for you. I wouldn't feel handicapped at all with my slug-loaded 500 GR, but I have thousands more rounds of trigger time on carbines similar to my 16" AR15.

[John C]

BS. An unlocked door is not a "suspicious circumstance."

Well, it can be or it can't be. It's more dependent on the totality of the circumstances. My front door is unlocked right now; my kids are playing outside at 11am on a Sunday morning. That's not a suspicious circumstance. A side door to a warehouse at 3am without a janitor truck in front and the lights off is a different story. That is definitely a suspicious circumstance that the police could/would investigate absent other circumstances. I would say that these two circumstances represent the ends of a continuum; where the dividing line falls between the two depends on the nature of the community.

-John