On Fighting Shotguns.... - Page 9

**JShirley** · May 2, 2009, 01:42 PM

I like your list, Dave...but they DID improve the 1903!

It's called the 1917!

ojibweindian · May 2, 2009, 05:29 PM

Thanks, sm!

Very interesting drill, the one using tennis balls. Would never have thought of using tennis balls as targets.

Lots to chew on. Again, thanks!

plumberroy · May 2, 2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Mag extensions change the balance of the gun, and side saddles do so as well

sure do even the elastic buttstock cuffs full of shells change the balance I wear the butt stock cuff on my left wrist/forearm (I'm a lefty)I have big enough wrist it stays right there.
Roy

Dave McCracken · May 2, 2009, 06:30 PM

John, my friend.....

At this point in time I've owned and operated one 03, two 03A3s, and two sporterized 1917s.

I like the Springfields better, but the 17 is oneheckuva rifle also.

Let's agree to disagree on this, and return to the subject at hand.

Shotguns....

mljdeckard · May 2, 2009, 06:44 PM

(I have a 1917 and I love it, but I very much want an 03A3.)

Badger Arms · May 2, 2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JShirley

I like your list, Dave...but they DID improve the 1903!

It's called the 1917!

I'll have to agree on all counts. Better, faster, stronger, more accurate, better stock (until the "C" stock) higher capacity, better sights, more of 'em, and no brittle receivers!

Tell me again, what is the advantage of the 1903? Oh, cool, you can adjust the sights better... whatever.

Dave McCracken · May 3, 2009, 09:28 PM

Looking back, I recall the triggers on the 03s were better, though I had converted one to a single stage so that can't count.

I had been taught early by a former infantryman to cycle a bolt action by hitting the bolt knob with my palm and not grabbing it with my fingers.

That worked better on the 03s than the 1917s, but it was even better on a Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine I had back then.

krab · May 5, 2009, 04:04 AM

Periodically when I go to my local range with my 870 synthetic Express 18" vang Comp and Bear coat modified shotgun I practice reloading and shooting one shell at a time without putting a single shell in the magazine tube.

I may spend 2 hours hand feeding the barrel ramp in order to load by feel not sight while keeping my eyes on the threat. This also allows me to reload in low or no light situations.

When firing my shotgun I am always reminded what a devastating weapon I have in my hands and I always respect this much power!

chudykGT · May 19, 2009, 12:53 AM

Krab, you have a good idea there. When comparing the choke and 26" barrel of my buddies 870 vs my open choke 20" we would load one shell at a time only.

Right now I have a Remy 870 express in synthetic with a 2rnd mag extension. I have a sling for carrying on hikes, but I do admit having it on really annoys me indoors. It just wants to snag on everything.

Luv my 1897 · May 25, 2009, 04:10 PM

I have an 1897 which is a great shooting, well balanced gun and a first time shooter can operate it with minimal instruction. Of course, it is somewhat of an out of date shotgun that you will probably not find in typical gun shops.

I am not particularly fond of Benelli shotguns because they are slightly more complex to operate (so I've heard). Plus I like to stick with American gun companies. If I were to purchase a new shotgun I would probably go with the Mossberg 590. My father has one and swears by it. I have shot it in many different configurations and it always performs well. I have not personally shot a Remington 870, so I really have no frame of reference for that gun, but I am sure they are just as reliable.

I would never buy a semi-auto shotgun due to not being able to cycle through to different rounds in the mag tube. Say you have you have two door breaching rounds then slug, 00buck, slug, 00buck... you get it, you can't cycle the second breaching round if the first does the job to get to the slug. You generally have to fire the second breaching round to get to the slug without complications (IE ejecting ALL cartridges accidentally) You can with a pump gun.

All in all, I would bet my life on my 1897 since I have it regularly checked and tuned by one of the best gunsmiths in the area (in my personal opinion) that can work on the beast. It hasn't failed me yet. Plus I run around two boxes of bird load every week or two to keep proficient. I use bird load for home protection due to the lack of over penetration. I don't want to accidentally shoot a slug or buckshot through my exterior house walls, possibly hitting someone outside.

Luv my 1897 · May 25, 2009, 04:19 PM

Like the range master at my local gun club says, "A shotgun with a pistol grip only is good for one thing, bank robberies or as an entry tool." I could not agree more! I recently shot my father-in-law's shotgun with a non-recoil reducing pistol grip. We were putting slugs through it. My wrist was useless for a week afterward! :

Luv my 1897 · May 25, 2009, 04:31 PM

I don't understand why you would only load one shell into the feed ramp. Is it hard for you to find the mag tube... directly under where you are hand feeding your shells? I personally think it would take less time to thumb two to three shells into the tube than hand loading each shell. let me know what you think the advantage is, I am not trying to bash you, more just understand other shooter's tactics.

~Bryan~

7Star · May 31, 2009, 11:25 AM

I just finished reading this thread... and I have not seen much mention of a full stock vs. a full stock with pistol grip. My old Mossberg 500 is due for a new stock.. I bought it used and the stock was not in great shape. I was planning on replacing it with the same wood stock. However, I am planning to start doing some more tactical/practice shooting and was wondering what others thought of the advantages of a pistol grip/full stock. I realize this is may be primarily a preference... but I know, for me, most of my rifles have this set up.

Dave McCracken · May 31, 2009, 11:32 AM

Here's my thoughts on a stock with separate PG.

About 200 years of R&D have gone into shotgun stocks as they are. All of this has focussed on whatever will direct the shot quickly and consistently.

Standard stocks work. I find the separate PG stocks slower and a trifle awkward.

Yes, I have shot rifles well with separate PGs.

They're not shotguns.

For me, the standard stock works best.

But do not take my word for it. Note that all clays work done by the best shooters is done with standard stocks. Ljutic's Space Gun had a SPG stock and few are now found on the trap lines despite Ljutic's excellent designs and workmanship.

7Star · May 31, 2009, 11:51 AM

Thank you for the input. I was thinking in a similar fashion. However, I have noted the military was more frequently using the Bennelli with the pistol grip. I guess I am wondering about the decision making behind that choice.

chieftain · May 31, 2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Thank you for the input. I was thinking in a similar fashion. However, I have noted the military was more frequently using the Bennelli with the pistol grip. I guess I am wondering about the decision making behind that choice.

RE: Full stock with pistol grip.

I think the military is using them just because they have converted all their small arms to pistol grip type stocks. Commonality, that's all. Not a bad idea as such.

As the military most often uses the shotgun for breaching and holding them properly for that duty is much easier in some cases with the full pistol grip stock.

I think that is as deep as it goes.

In my day we were using full stock w/o pistol grips in combat, but most often only the Company Gunny or platoon Sgt's had them. Effective when we were being overrun, useless in most fire fights.

When I did fight in built up area's (today's MOAT) once for a couple weeks in Hue, I did not see any shot guns deployed, but me and my guys were thrown into a pickup outfit.

I think it boils down to what works best for you.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide on and report back how good it works or what ever.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

BK · June 7, 2009, 05:59 PM

I'd like a Dominion Outlaw. Maybe when this state sovereignty/firearms/interstate commerce things comes to a head, I can get a SBS without all the federal mumbo jumbo attached.

7Star · June 7, 2009, 11:18 PM

Good luck on avoiding the federal mumbo jumbo. Dominion Outlaw.... that's a double barrel with hammers... you would think it'd be easier to get a double barrel.

model of 1905 · June 8, 2009, 12:25 AM

Dave, I'm not sure what shooting clays has to do with a fighting shotgun. I understand your point but I'll stick with my 930SPX with a pistol grip for SD/HD. Just works better for me. YMMV

Dave McCracken · June 8, 2009, 10:04 PM

1905, clays are usually moving fast on unknown vectors. A standard trap.skeet clay target is 4.1" in diameter, about the width of a good part of a human CNS.

If one can hit these in short time frames, bigger, slower, closer targets are gimmees.....

Water-Man · June 9, 2009, 11:50 AM

While a 12ga. has some advantages, don't discount using a 20ga. You might consider the Remington 870 Express Combo for its versatility.

lobo9er · August 25, 2009, 03:20 PM

chieftain

Quote:

I have moved my 590 Mossy to second place. I have moved a new Double barrel with dog ears up to first place.

My exact setup. Break action is as reliable as they come, backed up with a pump takes care of the HD situation.

RangerHAAF · November 30, 2009, 10:25 AM

I have a Remington 870 Express pump that I have setup for home defense. I added too many ubiquitous accessories to it like a side saddle, magazine extension, etc. I don't know why I did this, maybe reading too many gun mags. It shoots great but it is so heavy. On the other hand my M1-Benelli is the best SG in my arsenal; it's light, shoots almost every kind of shell that's loaded into it and hasn't jammed yet. I carry it in my gun rack inside of my truck. The Benelli inertia system is the best shooting operating system that I've yet to encounter in an autoloading shotgun; it's also the cleanest.

spazzymcgee · December 31, 2009, 03:35 PM

I agree with most of you that HD shotguns need to be simple, and reliable. But a sidesaddle never hurt anyone, right? I use a winchester 1300 defender with an 8 round magazine tube, and an 18 inch barrel. I also just put a tacstar side saddle on it. The sidesaddle is a necessity in my book because that extra 6 rounds could save my life. But anything else on a shotgun just makes no sense to me.

lobo9er · January 19, 2010, 07:55 AM

Question for Dave McCracken whats your views on low powered scopes?

May 2, 2009, 01:42 PM	#201
JShirley Administrator Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: DC Posts: 17,178	I like your list, Dave...but they DID improve the 1903! It's called the 1917! __________________ Evil looms. Cowboy up.-Larry Correia NEVER send money to this person! "Civil talk leads to civic action."- Sandra Day O'Connor

May 2, 2009, 05:29 PM	#202
ojibweindian Member Join Date: December 27, 2002 Location: Union Grove, Alabama Posts: 2,300	Thanks, sm! Very interesting drill, the one using tennis balls. Would never have thought of using tennis balls as targets. Lots to chew on. Again, thanks! __________________ placidity is tacit acceptance of tyranny

May 2, 2009, 06:44 PM	#205
mljdeckard Member Join Date: June 5, 2006 Location: In a part of Utah that resembles Tattooine. Posts: 11,879	(I have a 1917 and I love it, but I very much want an 03A3.) __________________ "Well I can assure you young man, that neither my companion or I carry firearms on our person. We rely upon the goodwill of our fellow man, and the forbearance of reptiles." -English Bob

May 19, 2009, 12:53 AM	#209
chudykGT Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 31	Krab, you have a good idea there. When comparing the choke and 26" barrel of my buddies 870 vs my open choke 20" we would load one shell at a time only. Right now I have a Remy 870 express in synthetic with a 2rnd mag extension. I have a sling for carrying on hikes, but I do admit having it on really annoys me indoors. It just wants to snag on everything. __________________ With the amount of jamming I experienced, I can only assume the word "Universal" In Winchester Universal shotshells stands for "garbage"

May 25, 2009, 04:10 PM	#210
Luv my 1897 Member Join Date: May 25, 2009 Location: Sutter, CA Posts: 45	In my book, simplicity is better. I have an 1897 which is a great shooting, well balanced gun and a first time shooter can operate it with minimal instruction. Of course, it is somewhat of an out of date shotgun that you will probably not find in typical gun shops. I am not particularly fond of Benelli shotguns because they are slightly more complex to operate (so I've heard). Plus I like to stick with American gun companies. If I were to purchase a new shotgun I would probably go with the Mossberg 590. My father has one and swears by it. I have shot it in many different configurations and it always performs well. I have not personally shot a Remington 870, so I really have no frame of reference for that gun, but I am sure they are just as reliable. I would never buy a semi-auto shotgun due to not being able to cycle through to different rounds in the mag tube. Say you have you have two door breaching rounds then slug, 00buck, slug, 00buck... you get it, you can't cycle the second breaching round if the first does the job to get to the slug. You generally have to fire the second breaching round to get to the slug without complications (IE ejecting ALL cartridges accidentally) You can with a pump gun. All in all, I would bet my life on my 1897 since I have it regularly checked and tuned by one of the best gunsmiths in the area (in my personal opinion) that can work on the beast. It hasn't failed me yet. Plus I run around two boxes of bird load every week or two to keep proficient. I use bird load for home protection due to the lack of over penetration. I don't want to accidentally shoot a slug or buckshot through my exterior house walls, possibly hitting someone outside.

May 2, 2009, 06:30 PM	#204
Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: MD. Posts: 13,941	John, my friend..... At this point in time I've owned and operated one 03, two 03A3s, and two sporterized 1917s. I like the Springfields better, but the 17 is oneheckuva rifle also. Let's agree to disagree on this, and return to the subject at hand. Shotguns....

May 3, 2009, 09:28 PM	#207
Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: MD. Posts: 13,941	Looking back, I recall the triggers on the 03s were better, though I had converted one to a single stage so that can't count. I had been taught early by a former infantryman to cycle a bolt action by hitting the bolt knob with my palm and not grabbing it with my fingers. That worked better on the 03s than the 1917s, but it was even better on a Lee-Enfield Jungle Carbine I had back then.

May 5, 2009, 04:04 AM	#208
krab Member Join Date: September 7, 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4	Periodically when I go to my local range with my 870 synthetic Express 18" vang Comp and Bear coat modified shotgun I practice reloading and shooting one shell at a time without putting a single shell in the magazine tube. I may spend 2 hours hand feeding the barrel ramp in order to load by feel not sight while keeping my eyes on the threat. This also allows me to reload in low or no light situations. When firing my shotgun I am always reminded what a devastating weapon I have in my hands and I always respect this much power!

May 25, 2009, 04:19 PM	#211
Luv my 1897 Member Join Date: May 25, 2009 Location: Sutter, CA Posts: 45	Stockless pistol grip=Bank robbery gun Like the range master at my local gun club says, "A shotgun with a pistol grip only is good for one thing, bank robberies or as an entry tool." I could not agree more! I recently shot my father-in-law's shotgun with a non-recoil reducing pistol grip. We were putting slugs through it. My wrist was useless for a week afterward! :

May 25, 2009, 04:31 PM	#212
Luv my 1897 Member Join Date: May 25, 2009 Location: Sutter, CA Posts: 45	To krab??? I don't understand why you would only load one shell into the feed ramp. Is it hard for you to find the mag tube... directly under where you are hand feeding your shells? I personally think it would take less time to thumb two to three shells into the tube than hand loading each shell. let me know what you think the advantage is, I am not trying to bash you, more just understand other shooter's tactics. ~Bryan~

May 31, 2009, 11:25 AM	#213
7Star Member Join Date: September 24, 2008 Posts: 86	I just finished reading this thread... and I have not seen much mention of a full stock vs. a full stock with pistol grip. My old Mossberg 500 is due for a new stock.. I bought it used and the stock was not in great shape. I was planning on replacing it with the same wood stock. However, I am planning to start doing some more tactical/practice shooting and was wondering what others thought of the advantages of a pistol grip/full stock. I realize this is may be primarily a preference... but I know, for me, most of my rifles have this set up.

May 31, 2009, 11:32 AM	#214
Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: MD. Posts: 13,941	Here's my thoughts on a stock with separate PG. About 200 years of R&D have gone into shotgun stocks as they are. All of this has focussed on whatever will direct the shot quickly and consistently. Standard stocks work. I find the separate PG stocks slower and a trifle awkward. Yes, I have shot rifles well with separate PGs. They're not shotguns. For me, the standard stock works best. But do not take my word for it. Note that all clays work done by the best shooters is done with standard stocks. Ljutic's Space Gun had a SPG stock and few are now found on the trap lines despite Ljutic's excellent designs and workmanship. Last edited by Dave McCracken; May 31, 2009 at 11:56 AM.

May 31, 2009, 11:51 AM	#215
7Star Member Join Date: September 24, 2008 Posts: 86	Thank you for the input. I was thinking in a similar fashion. However, I have noted the military was more frequently using the Bennelli with the pistol grip. I guess I am wondering about the decision making behind that choice.

June 7, 2009, 05:59 PM	#217
BK Member Join Date: December 27, 2002 Location: Blood of the Apache Posts: 472	I'd like a Dominion Outlaw. Maybe when this state sovereignty/firearms/interstate commerce things comes to a head, I can get a SBS without all the federal mumbo jumbo attached.

June 7, 2009, 11:18 PM	#218
7Star Member Join Date: September 24, 2008 Posts: 86	Good luck on avoiding the federal mumbo jumbo. Dominion Outlaw.... that's a double barrel with hammers... you would think it'd be easier to get a double barrel.

June 8, 2009, 12:25 AM	#219
model of 1905 member Join Date: December 16, 2008 Location: New Mexico Posts: 377	Dave, I'm not sure what shooting clays has to do with a fighting shotgun. I understand your point but I'll stick with my 930SPX with a pistol grip for SD/HD. Just works better for me. YMMV

June 8, 2009, 10:04 PM	#220
Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam Join Date: December 20, 2002 Location: MD. Posts: 13,941	1905, clays are usually moving fast on unknown vectors. A standard trap.skeet clay target is 4.1" in diameter, about the width of a good part of a human CNS. If one can hit these in short time frames, bigger, slower, closer targets are gimmees.....

June 9, 2009, 11:50 AM	#221
Water-Man Member Join Date: March 22, 2008 Location: North Georgia & South Florida Posts: 1,578	While a 12ga. has some advantages, don't discount using a 20ga. You might consider the Remington 870 Express Combo for its versatility. __________________ PROUD TO BE A VETERAN

November 30, 2009, 10:25 AM	#223
RangerHAAF Member Join Date: July 24, 2003 Location: Decatur, Georgia Posts: 471	I have a Remington 870 Express pump that I have setup for home defense. I added too many ubiquitous accessories to it like a side saddle, magazine extension, etc. I don't know why I did this, maybe reading too many gun mags. It shoots great but it is so heavy. On the other hand my M1-Benelli is the best SG in my arsenal; it's light, shoots almost every kind of shell that's loaded into it and hasn't jammed yet. I carry it in my gun rack inside of my truck. The Benelli inertia system is the best shooting operating system that I've yet to encounter in an autoloading shotgun; it's also the cleanest. __________________ Where excellence is possible, good is not enough.

December 31, 2009, 03:35 PM	#224
spazzymcgee Member Join Date: December 29, 2009 Location: Marydel, DE Posts: 120	I agree with most of you that HD shotguns need to be simple, and reliable. But a sidesaddle never hurt anyone, right? I use a winchester 1300 defender with an 8 round magazine tube, and an 18 inch barrel. I also just put a tacstar side saddle on it. The sidesaddle is a necessity in my book because that extra 6 rounds could save my life. But anything else on a shotgun just makes no sense to me.

January 19, 2010, 07:55 AM	#225
lobo9er Member Join Date: July 8, 2009 Location: Earth, Currently Posts: 2,479	Question for Dave McCracken whats your views on low powered scopes?